Guys: How Would You Feel if Fiance Wouldn't Change Her Last Name?

[MEMEMEME]

Uh, how is it a coward account? I am well aware that my old posts will transfer under  my new name (with same e-mail). I just decided I liked this name better, just like you decided to change yours.

NUMITOR- The reason I left last time was because I was pretty pissed when my mother was thrown at me as an insult (meanwhile her condition (CANCER) was worsening at the very point) and I just needed a break from all of the stupidity. But, hey, I figure, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. So I will join in becoming a petty, insulting twit. It is a good release for me for the time being.

Mac N Cheese- I agree with everything you said to me in your . I add though that social constructs throughout time and some stay. It depends how different societies evolve. I suppose my point is if there are enough people who want the change, then the others should stick to their traditions if they want and not stop the revolutionaries from changing. It doesn't mean traditionalists have to change.

[cooleylawstudent]

If this is supposed to be "son of a pickle" shutup. Someone is already using your name and look again at your counter, are you too stupid to just change name vs creating a whole new account? Really?.......Really?

Uh, how is it a coward account? I am well aware that my old posts will transfer under  my new name (with same e-mail). I just decided I liked this name better, just like you decided to change yours.

NUMITOR- The reason I left last time was because I was pretty pissed when my mother was thrown at me as an insult (meanwhile her condition (CANCER) was worsening at the very point) and I just needed a break from all of the stupidity. But, hey, I figure, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. So I will join in becoming a petty, insulting twit. It is a good release for me for the time being.

Mac N Cheese- I agree with everything you said to me in your . I add though that social constructs throughout time and some stay. It depends how different societies evolve. I suppose my point is if there are enough people who want the change, then the others should stick to their traditions if they want and not stop the revolutionaries from changing. It doesn't mean traditionalists have to change.

[MEMEMEME]

It isn't sonofapickle. I thought he was a male anyway. Uh, let's just move on. I'm tired of arguing with you anyway for the moment.

[cooleylawstudent]

ok what was your username and why didnt you just change your name on it instead of setting up a new account.

It isn't sonofapickle. I thought he was a male anyway. Uh, let's just move on. I'm tired of arguing with you anyway for the moment.

[Haynes7]

Your right I DON'T understand the issue.  As I said "I don't really see your point".

In your initial statement you claimed that any given woman would be upset to be married without a ring at a court house and that to a male, having your wife take your name is the symbolic equivalent of a fancy wedding for a woman.  This sort of statement really does nothing to support the idea that it is either right or wrong for a man to expect his wife to change her name.  All you are saying is that "things like changing names and fancy ceremonies ARE important to people". 

You are counting on the fact that all women want diamonds and fancy weddings to prove your point. 

You final statement about how if "hypothetically" I did want a diamond, in principle, my husband should give it to me because in healthy relationships couples care about how their loved one feels.  This misses the issue entirely because the issue is how do we deal with a situation where two people who are about to get married get into a dispute where one wants one thing and the other wants the opposite.  The principle that "you should give your fiance what they want" simply cannot be applied if both people want opposite things.  The question becomes which person will give way.  Why ought the woman give way in this instance?  Why do you assume that the woman cares less about keeping her maiden name than the man cares about the woman taking his name?   

Um..I don't really see your point.  Tons of people get married and not everyone has rings or ceremonies.  Take me for example, I kept my maiden name when I was married but I also never got a diamond engagement ring and I did not have a wedding with a fancy dress and a string quartet.

 The ceremony of marriage doesn't interest me particularly.  I understand that some women are into those things but there are women out there who would trade the traditional trappings of marriage just to keep their maiden name.  Plus I don't really see your point because "traditionally" the brides family is supposed to pay for the wedding, all the man has to pay for is the engagement ring and engagement rings can be cheap or super expensive depending on HIS taste.  So the bride loses her name and puts her family in debt to pay for the wedding and you are talking about symbolism and unity.  It seems to me that "traditionally" men are the greater beneficiaries of marriage so stop complaining about what men have to sacrifice for marriage and respect women enough to see that we are not just silly romantic fools but rational creatures capable of sound financial and emotional judgement.   

That would hurt! The way I see it, there is not an objective correlation between happiness within a marriage and spouse name change. However, the name change symbolizes unity and togetherness which is obviously an issue in the event it doesn't happen. Just to illustrate my point - how would you feel if he expected you to marry him, but didn't give you a ring or a nice wedding ceremony? What if he wanted to skip the ring altogether? What if his idea of a nice wedding was to take you in his car down to the court building and marry you, then afterwards, take you to an all you can eat buffet then drop you off at home before going to work? You'd probably feel like crap because of what those things actually sybolize. On a broader scale, people rarely admit the importance of appearance and how things look to friends, family, and colleagues.
I'd probably react by explaining how important the name thing is. If I had to beg, I wouldn't want to move forward because begging is not cool. If I had to beg about this, then there is no telling what else i'd have to beg for. Just my thoughts. Be good

MaCNCheese

You don't see the real issue here. You'd only understand my point if you could somehow understand that somethings are important to a potential spouse and when these things are disregarded by the fiance, it hurts. So, hypothetically speaking, what if a diamond ring and a fancy dress with a quartet string was important to YOU? If you didn't get those things, you'd be disappointed and therefore hurt. Furthermore, it's irrelevant to mention whether or not the groom or the bride is financially responsible for the wedding. (doesn't really matter who pays the bill) If the bride expects it and doesn't get it, she will be a bridezilla! Period.More importantly in this issue, is its IMORTANCE to either person. Obviously, if two people could care less about the jewelry, then it is not an issue - but thats not what we are talking about. Were talking about a situation in which one person values something and deems it important for the relationship, but the other does not.

MaCNCheese

[mac n cheese]

Your right I DON'T understand the issue.  As I said "I don't really see your point".

In your initial statement you claimed that any given woman would be upset to be married without a ring at a court house and that to a male, having your wife take your name is the symbolic equivalent of a fancy wedding for a woman.  This sort of statement really does nothing to support the idea that it is either right or wrong for a man to expect his wife to change her name.  All you are saying is that "things like changing names and fancy ceremonies ARE important to people". 

You are counting on the fact that all women want diamonds and fancy weddings to prove your point. 

You final statement about how if "hypothetically" I did want a diamond, in principle, my husband should give it to me because in healthy relationships couples care about how their loved one feels.  This misses the issue entirely because the issue is how do we deal with a situation where two people who are about to get married get into a dispute where one wants one thing and the other wants the opposite.  The principle that "you should give your fiance what they want" simply cannot be applied if both people want opposite things.  The question becomes which person will give way.  Why ought the woman give way in this instance?  Why do you assume that the woman cares less about keeping her maiden name than the man cares about the woman taking his name?   

Um..I don't really see your point.  Tons of people get married and not everyone has rings or ceremonies.  Take me for example, I kept my maiden name when I was married but I also never got a diamond engagement ring and I did not have a wedding with a fancy dress and a string quartet.

 The ceremony of marriage doesn't interest me particularly.  I understand that some women are into those things but there are women out there who would trade the traditional trappings of marriage just to keep their maiden name.  Plus I don't really see your point because "traditionally" the brides family is supposed to pay for the wedding, all the man has to pay for is the engagement ring and engagement rings can be cheap or super expensive depending on HIS taste.  So the bride loses her name and puts her family in debt to pay for the wedding and you are talking about symbolism and unity.  It seems to me that "traditionally" men are the greater beneficiaries of marriage so stop complaining about what men have to sacrifice for marriage and respect women enough to see that we are not just silly romantic fools but rational creatures capable of sound financial and emotional judgement.   

That would hurt! The way I see it, there is not an objective correlation between happiness within a marriage and spouse name change. However, the name change symbolizes unity and togetherness which is obviously an issue in the event it doesn't happen. Just to illustrate my point - how would you feel if he expected you to marry him, but didn't give you a ring or a nice wedding ceremony? What if he wanted to skip the ring altogether? What if his idea of a nice wedding was to take you in his car down to the court building and marry you, then afterwards, take you to an all you can eat buffet then drop you off at home before going to work? You'd probably feel like crap because of what those things actually sybolize. On a broader scale, people rarely admit the importance of appearance and how things look to friends, family, and colleagues.
I'd probably react by explaining how important the name thing is. If I had to beg, I wouldn't want to move forward because begging is not cool. If I had to beg about this, then there is no telling what else i'd have to beg for. Just my thoughts. Be good

MaCNCheese

You don't see the real issue here. You'd only understand my point if you could somehow understand that somethings are important to a potential spouse and when these things are disregarded by the fiance, it hurts. So, hypothetically speaking, what if a diamond ring and a fancy dress with a quartet string was important to YOU? If you didn't get those things, you'd be disappointed and therefore hurt. Furthermore, it's irrelevant to mention whether or not the groom or the bride is financially responsible for the wedding. (doesn't really matter who pays the bill) If the bride expects it and doesn't get it, she will be a bridezilla! Period.More importantly in this issue, is its IMORTANCE to either person. Obviously, if two people could care less about the jewelry, then it is not an issue - but thats not what we are talking about. Were talking about a situation in which one person values something and deems it important for the relationship, but the other does not.

MaCNCheese

You've said: "You are counting on the fact that all women want diamonds and fancy weddings to prove your point." 

My response: This is inaccurate. I merely used the example as a hypo to prove the point that when expectations are not met, it hurts. (admittedly, i've assumed that THIS hypo would be a good illustration because in my neighborhood, most girls like diamonds and weddings. Go figure!

You also state: "It seems to me that "traditionally" men are the greater beneficiaries of marriage so stop complaining about what men have to sacrifice for marriage and respect women enough to see that we are not just silly romantic fools but rational creatures capable of sound financial and emotional judgement".   

My response: Who said this? I never complained about what men have to sacrifice and never implied that women are silly romantic fools that are incapable of sound financial and emotional judgment. This statement in itself is quite emotional.....

You say: The principle that "you should give your fiance what they want" simply cannot be applied if both people want opposite things.  The question becomes which person will give way.  Why ought the woman give way in this instance?  Why do you assume that the woman cares less about keeping her maiden name than the man cares about the woman taking his name?   

My response: good point. In all honesty, no matter who gives way, someone will not get what they expect.

I can't let you off the hook that easy so I have a few questions. You mentioned that you did not get a ring and did not have a ceremeony, obviously, because you did not expect these things. Was there anything that you expected from the marriage? If so, what were the things that you expected?

[Haynes7]

Wow.  You are right.  I do get upset that women feel like they need big expensive wedding.  I feel like it is self-centered, egotistical and shows poor judgement and is fiscally irresponsible. 

I do think your comparison has a grain of truth.  Women who demand expensive weddings are much like men who require a woman to show her devotion to him by changing her name.  In both cases tho, the people are mistaking the symbols and icons of devotion for the real thing.  A woman changing her maiden name does not MEAN that she will be a loyal or devoted wife, therefore I do not change my name to show my devotion.  Some women think that the more money their husband spends on the engagement ring the more he loves her.  This is also not the case.     

You said that the symbols of commitment are important.  Well I say that they are empty and devoid of meaning and significance and everyone knows it.  Furthermore, they are boring and hackneyed.  Every relationship is unique and different and people ought to create their own idea of what marriage is rather than re-enacting the same tired pantomime with the virginal white dress and the woman being "given" away like chattel. 

You asked me what I expect from my husband... no more than I expect from my other family members because that is what he is, my family.  I don't have any clear expectations.  What do you expect from your family? 

[mac n cheese]

Haynes,
So, i ask you "what did you expect from a marriage?" and you respond by saying, "I didn't have any clear expectations". Come on........

[cooleylawstudent]

the same can be said for all other standard expectations(IE, name changes of the woman to that of her husband) "come on,,,,,,,"

Haynes,
So, i ask you "what did you expect from a marriage?" and you respond by saying, "I didn't have any clear expectations". Come on........

[Haynes7]

Ok, what if what I expect of my husband is to lack expectations of me...lol

One standard marital expectation is sexual fidelity.  The failure of either partner in this area can lead to STD's which in turn can cause sterility and even death.  This seems a reasonable expectation because of the consequences.  What are the negative consequences of a wife not taking her husbands name that he can point to and say "look at the harm that will be done if you don't take my name". 

I don't think men have much of a leg to stand on demanding that women change their names because "omg how will it look to other people if you don't change your name".  I doubt that men routinely lose respect or social status, health or wealth because of their wife's last name.