Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)

[cantdecide2010]

Both schools im considering would be at 10k / year

[the white rabbit]

If there are summer positions available, does that not indicate there are jobs in general.  

No, it does not.  Tell me, what does the summer position pay?

Both schools im considering would be at 10k / year

I saw your post in the other thread.  I can't really help out with that particular decision since I don't know either of those schools or the market particularly well, but I don't think that $10k/year is a particularly unreasonable tuition (assuming you can hold on to your scholarship; you should consider what your total debt will look like if you lose it).  If you live frugally, you should be able to get out of school without owing too crazy an amount of money.  Doesn't sound like you're on your way to the $200k debt load a lot of people take on.

[cooleylawstudent]

At $10K a year I can only assume you mean CBE schools on the 4 year plan.

[IAmMultipleBooks]

from http://esqnever.blogspot.com/2010/04/responsible-0l.html

"During my 1L year, I remember professors talking to us about what awaits us when we become associates in large firms - as if landing such positions was a given. One legal writing professors even urged us to be kind to our secretaries because they hold more power than they're given credit. Who would have thought that they "hold more power" than I do because they're actually gainfully employed, and I'd be lucky to get a sales position at Radio Shack.

Like the friends of an entranced teenage girl, however, the scam-bloggers can't get through to the infatuated party. "It's not true!", the 0L's cry. "They wouldn't lie to us!", they protest. No, it's us - the "losers" - who are the enemy and just out to sully the good name of these fine institutions of academic excellence because we couldn't hack it.

Sadly, when their three years are up, they finally are able to recognize the truth - once it's too late. Just like the girl who spurned her friends' counsel and has learned that "prince charming" has been dating three other girls and is indifferent to her feelings, the new law school graduates are cast out of their delusion only to realize they'd been conned by some of the most duplicitous characters in higher education."

Read more at http://esqnever.blogspot.com/ (just one of many law school scam busting blogs).

[nealric]

Hold it there: no one said it was a bad investment for everyone at T14s. If you think I exaggerated, please tell these people where I exaggerated. Obviously there are people in T14s who, because of either exceptional grades or because of a good family, get jobs

This is really a matter of opinion, so I can't really prove anything one way or another. However, I just think that your characterization of situation is generally worse than it really is. While many of my friends here at GULC missed out on biglaw due to the economy, almost everyone I know has something reasonably good lined up post graduation- or are at least getting plenty of interviews. Plenty of people (at least 3Ls) got biglaw despite the economy with good, but not spectacular grades and no particular family ties (myself included). I agree that it's bad, just not armageddon.

I also disagree with the characterization of law school as a "Scam" in general. It may be a bad deal for some, but there's no malice going on. I do agree that for-profit law schools are dangerously close to that line though.

[TheCause]

Well I dropped out of law school and was enrolling in the MBA program, but when I asked the MBA admissions dean at my school for a guarantee that I would be paid 100k at graduation and get a sweet corner office she said she couldn't guarantee it?  I guess if you get an M.B.A. you also have to look for a job at graduation and not everybody becomes a C.E.O right when they graduate and some even have a hard time finding a job so I hear.

Well although I am not in law school anymore, at least I have my B.A. and paralegal certificate and that at least guarantees me a job as a paralegal right? However, I seem to remember when I graduated with that two years ago it took me 2 months to find a job and the first one I got did not pay me 6 figures and they made me do actual work and some of the things they made me do I did nto enjoy, can you believe it! I remember at times feeling underpaid and sometimes like I would rather be doing something else than working. Can you believe that I actually had a job where I felt I was not making enough money and I didn't love every single second of it!?!?

I know everyone one that doesn't have a J.D. sits around saying how much they love their job and that they are making way to much money. I have never heard anyone other than lawyers complaint about their job, so at least I am glad I am going not down the J.D. path I would hate to risk feeling that I was underpaid and not getting amazing assignments all the time and having the flexibility to just say I don't want to deal with something that is inconvenient or god forbid not everything handed to me. Thank god for this great economy and employers handing out sweet, easy, and high-paying jobs to people as long as they don't get a J.D. I hear it is way to better drop out of school in about 8th grade work for McDonald's for a few years then show up and get a 6 figure salary.

Funny Guy, Bigs.

If I could, I would change the name of this thread to "Don't go into a lot of debt to go to law school right now"

You are right that a job is hardly ever "guaranteed,"  but law school is particularly risky right now.  Some people will get a return on their investment, but the statistical likelihood is a lot lower now than it was three or four years ago.  One medium/large firm in my region extended full-time offers to all of it's six summer associates in 2008.  In 2009 they only offered one a job, and this year they are only taking on two summer associates and the firm informed them that an offer after graduation was unlikely.
That's just one example, but I hear stories like that all the time. 

An MBA is a totally different story.  In some fields, an M.B.A. isn't much more valuable than a Business Bachelors Degree.  But there is a huge difference between a JD and an MBA:  An MBA really only takes a year, and tuition at a bottom-level school is usually very low in comparison.  I know of one quality university that offers an MBA for 12,000. (Three trimesters, one year, 40 Credits)  The cheapest law schools charge 12,000 (in-state) each year for three years.  So if you are going to compare a JD to an MBA you have to take into account the fact that the JD costs at least three times as much.  Some people spend 90-120k on law school tuition.  I don't know of any MBA program that even comes close to that.

I made the decision to go to my law school based on the information that over 90% of the students had jobs within 9 months after graduation, and 55% of graduates found jobs at law firms.  I assumed that if I could get in the top third or quarter of my class, then I would be able to get a job in a law firm. I'm working in the public sector now, and most of the firms respond to my resume with: "A resume like yours would have gotten you a pretty good job three years ago."
 
Your risk analysis has to be a lot different now, and that's what I'm trying to tell 0Ls.   

 

[cooleylawstudent]

It's easy to change your username, you probally could change it to that if you wanted. Check out your profile to find out how or ask a moderator if needed.

[IAmMultipleBooks]

Hold it there: no one said it was a bad investment for everyone at T14s. If you think I exaggerated, please tell these people where I exaggerated. Obviously there are people in T14s who, because of either exceptional grades or because of a good family, get jobs

This is really a matter of opinion, so I can't really prove anything one way or another. However, I just think that your characterization of situation is generally worse than it really is. While many of my friends here at GULC missed out on biglaw due to the economy, almost everyone I know has something reasonably good lined up post graduation- or are at least getting plenty of interviews. Plenty of people (at least 3Ls) got biglaw despite the economy with good, but not spectacular grades and no particular family ties (myself included). I agree that it's bad, just not armageddon.

I also disagree with the characterization of law school as a "Scam" in general. It may be a bad deal for some, but there's no malice going on. I do agree that for-profit law schools are dangerously close to that line though.

My characterization is accurate. If you calculate expected returns using the phony law school statistics, you will probably find law school to be a good investment. If you calculate the expected returns using the true statistics, you will probably find law school to be a bad investment. My personal opinion is that law school is a bad investment unless you have exceptional grades, are well-connected, or go to HYS (Harvard, Yale, or Stanford). YOU might have achieved a great return on your investment with average or slightly-above average grades and coming from a working class household. That's good, and I applaud you for it. But decisions about whether to go to law school should be made with a cool head.

The Wall Street Journal blog wrote yesterday that law school exhibits similar characteristics of the housing boom (http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2010/04/19/how-legal-education-today-is-like-sub-prime-mortgage-market-in-2006/). Although I don't see law school tuition crashing soon, I do know that law school applicants are generally not making their decisions with enough knowledge of the legal profession. Law schools are generally pretty expensive. Do you know that most TTTs charge around the same price as T14s?

That's why I'm here telling the 0Ls not to believe the numbers put out by the law schools. Also, you should understand that many people are too embarrassed to admit they don't have jobs. It's not something people like to talk about, particularly when you form part of a culture that stigmatizes poverty, unemployment, and underemployment.

[lawrookie]

Lawschool is the easiest thing that I have ever done in my entire life. What the hell are you talking about?

[IAmMultipleBooks]

Lawschool is the easiest thing that I have ever done in my entire life. What the hell are you talking about?

I never said it was difficult.