Is Cooley Law School That Bad?

[john4040]

The T3 & T4s congratulate, and the T1's trash the rest.. it's whatever. The funniest yet are the comments trashing people before they've even taken the LSAT or been accepted anywhere...

The problem is that there's going to be a "student loan bubble" akin to that in the real estate market.  Most of these T3 and T4 students are taking out massive student loans that they can't realistically repay.  Who will repay their loans when the bubble bursts?  Probably me (along with the other gainfully employed US taxpayers).  There is already a significant call to make student debt dischargeable in bankruptcy -- that should immediately sound warning bells.   The law schools and professors could care less because they can manipulate the employment stats, lure students in by the thousands, and make stacks of cash on the backs of the government, the students, and ultimately, the US taxpayer.  The government has assured the law schools that they'll be getting paid and, while business is good in the short-term, who the fck cares about the long-term consequences, right? (Oh wait.. that was the same attitude that fueled the bank collapses and real-estate bubble).

Why are we creating more law schools and churning out more law students when supply grossly outstrips demand?  Why are we encouraging and allowing these idiots to take on student loans which cannot, realistically, be repaid?  How can a T3 and T4 law school (or any expensive law school in a state where supply grossly outstrips demand) justify its existence?  (If the law school is the best in the state; or a case could be made for diversity; or if there's evidence that additional attorneys are needed in a particular state where the law school is proposed to be built, then I'd be sold.  However, I'm not sold on the claim that "everyone needs an education" and "education is inherently valuable.")  Why are we allowing the quality of legal care to take a nosedive by admitting anyone and everyone with a pulse to the bar?  These are the questions which I hope get resolved before the bubble is allowed to burst.

 The bottom line: No private bank would EVER take a risk on these T3 and T4 students if their loans weren't backed by Uncle Sam, or, weren't backed by a belief of loan bail out in the event of mass student loan default. If they wouldn't be willing to take on the risk, why is my money being used to back and encourage such a stupid, avoidable, and irrational risk? The government has absolutely no business backing student loans unless there is a showing that these schools are absolutely necessary to further a substantial interest (the inherent value of education, alone, is not a substantial interest).  Without such a showing, the student loans should not be backed.

And lastly, its actually $1100 per credit hour. No idea where you found 900 at.

So, it's actually a worse investment than he initially thought...  how wonderful.

[Hamilton]

And lastly, its actually $1100 per credit hour. No idea where you found 900 at.

Thanks for clarifying tuition costs, my numbers were a couple of years old.  $1,100/credit hour... Un. Stinking. Believable!  How does LeDuc look in the mirror each morning?

[politicolaw]

also a note on quality of applicants...

its increasingly more difficult to get admitted to law school than in past years and decades. So, given the competition of the current time wouldn't that suggest that current students are of a higher caliber? Even Cooley raises the LSAT minimum a point every year or two.. so the alumni from a decade ago are examples of the quality that I would severely question- that could be someone that had a 130s score! 

 I completely agree that taking on 150k plus on a lower tiered school is a HUGE risk - one that I will not be taking. One way that this problem is being addressed is through the extended repayment plans and income based repayment on federal loans. Most law grads would be able to extend payment for 25-30 years, and in some public service fields they can be forgiven after 10 years.

[Detroitynglawyer]

I'm sure it is what you make of it.  BUTTTTTT>.............

It is a handicap for sure!  Harder all along the way to get a job or anything and you always have to worry about getting kicked out at cooley. 

3 years + debt is a lot! 

If i could do it over again I would do something more profitable.

[jack24]

also a note on quality of applicants...

its increasingly more difficult to get admitted to law school than in past years and decades. So, given the competition of the current time wouldn't that suggest that current students are of a higher caliber? Even Cooley raises the LSAT minimum a point every year or two.. so the alumni from a decade ago are examples of the quality that I would severely question- that could be someone that had a 130s score! 

Really?  But more people take the LSAT, so there are more people with a high LSAT (since its basically a forced curve).  Cooley accepts people with sub 150 scores.  Since over 130,000 people take the LSAT every year, approximately 65,000 applicants get above a 150 and cooley still accepts people with a 146 and 2.9 gpa.   According to americanbar.org, around 50,000 students enrolled in ABA approved law schools, so I guess there are a ton of LSAT takers that don't go to law school at all, but there are still a lot of schools and a lot of opportunities.
Some people may say Cooley provides the same education as any school, and that may be true, but a kid with a 146 and 2.9 is facing an avalanche of superior competition, especially when he goes to a school very well-known for it's low ranking.

[politicolaw]

I believe thats exactly the argument. I agree that someone with a 2.9 and 146 would probably have a difficult time- also if those are accurate representations of that persons ability (maybe they were in the military, worked, whatever).

From my understanding, Cooley does accept people with low numbers.... ** with the understanding that they are giving you a chance to prove yourself amidst the competition.
- LSAC says about 20% attrition after 1L, and its right down the middle 10% transfer and 10% fail out.

I do believe this reflects at least an average quality graduate in the end, if you can make it through the cuts and competition for the first year or two then it should be alright. I've talked to Florida Cooley alumni and this is what they have reiterated the same message.

The negatives of Cooley are about the rankings (that should be gone), low admissions standards, and the attrition for the first year or two. But in the end, I think the quality of a graduate after going through Cooley's process isn't what is in question.

[FalconJimmy]

Scholarships are also a huge plus at Cooley.  I don't know of any other school with such a liberal scholarship policy.  I got 3/4 there, and only about 1/2 where I'm going.

On the downside, and I don't think this is to be discounted, is that folks who go to Cooley describe the experience as absolutely brutal.  I don't know that law school is supposed to be enjoyable per se, but the Cooley folks describe their experience as being rather unpleasant. 

[Hamilton]

PERCEPTION IS REALITY.  Cooley is "that bad" b/c the legal community generally thinks it is.  All arguments about quality of education, etc. aside - firms that hire lawyers look down on Cooley, so perception IS reality.  I know some top 5% students that have gone on to decent careers in recent years, but that's about it.

Cooley does itself no favors by expanding and becoming bigger.  This says that they are more interested in quantity (and money), not quality.  Walmart is not trying to be some Rodeo Drive boutique... but they make more money selling in large numbers.

[B212bb]

Okay im a canadian student who really didn't have really good grades so im going to  be applying for law school in the u.s because in Canada the law schools are just too competitive. My gpa is 2.9 and my LSAT is a 156. Can you guys tell me what law schools i might have a chance at? Furthermore people told me that Cooley University is lenient for entrance but it has a bad reputation.

Yes Cooley is bad. Canada does it right, they limit the number of law schools. Whereas in the US, if you put a couple books in your garage you could probably get accreditation from the ABA.  I don't know why you would ever consider leaving Canada, with a strong labour market and lower employment rate, for a legal career in the USA where legal wages are depressed, people cannot pay off their loans, and a law degree is increasingly less prestigious and no ticket to a better future (often, it is a ticket to a terrible future). Plus, if you do not get a job after graduating Cooley (very likely), you will not be able to remain indefinitely in the US. Thus, you will have to return to Canada, but in order to practice law you need to Article first - and what firm will take someone who left Canada for a piss-poor US school?

From one Canuck to another - don't do it!

[unknownOne]

There isn't anything wrong with Cooley's main campus aside from the fact that they aren't selective with the students they accept for admission. It's possible the grading there is more difficult to help boost bar passage rates due to this.  There's no reason to think the quality of education there is any worse than it is at most other law schools.  They have money. They attract good faculty.  They have good facilities with a nice new classroom building and one of the best law libraries. 

And depending on one's perspective, allowing others a chance that didn't graduate college with a high GPA might not be a bad thing.  How many millions of intelligent persons messed up their GPA during their their freshmen/sophomore years in college when they were 18/19?  Should these people forever be barred from going to professional or grad school?  I don't think so.  But then the overabundance of law school graduates also has to be taken into account....

Recruiters don't pass by schools like this because they think the quality of education is poor and think the instruction was better at University of Michigan of some other school.  They focus on highly selective schools because they know these schools already did much of the work for them by being selective with the students they accepted for admission in the first place.  They go to Tier I's and II's because every student there had earlier proved themselves by graduating with an A/A- average in undergrad combined with very high LSAT scores.