thinking of Toledo 2010 any help?

[l8outoftheg8]

I, like the OP, am considering Toledo Law. I've seen a post somewhere else that slams the law school for having requirements of its scholarship recipients that make it difficult to maintain after the first year: 3.3 min GPA with stiff competition for grades from transitional students, according to the poster. For those of you at Toledo, how many students do you think lose their scholarship due to grades?

[Toledo2011]

Most full scholarship offers to UT require you to maintain a 3.3 grade point average. Last year, there were 100 students in the Class of 2011 and 30 of them averaged 3.3 or better (according to the rank list posted on the web, which has since been superseded by a newer list and taken down). But that's a flawed number, because the class started out with more than 120 people and over the course of the school year 20-plus dropped out.

In most years you need to be in the top 25-30 percent to grade 3.3 or above and keep your scholarship. Whether that is fair or not is a matter of opinion, but it's certainly not easy. If you show up thinking, well, I could have gotten into a better school and I'll cruise to my 3.3, you'll probably find that's not the case. If you're above 3.3 after your first year, the odds are very good you're going to keep your ride for all three years (if you were close you could load up on soft electives). If you're under 3.3, you lose the ride. No negotiations. Doesn't matter how close you are.

[ilovelaw1256]

1.) TRANSFERS
With 110% percent certainty, in the last two years 3 students have transferred to Michigan from Toledo. Additionally, at least one was a transitional student. I also KNOW that any of these students would be willing to speak highly of BOTH schools and are happy to talk about their experiences. Additionally, in the past two years, Toledo students have also gone to GULC (transitional student as well), William & Mary, Notre Dame (part-time student went into full status), Ohio State, and other higher ranked schools. optionK, sounds like you may be thinking about transferring (presumptuous after only one semester of grades, especially that do not include legal writing classes)...I suggest asking Dean Pizzimenti about these students, she knows their situation and would certainly contact them on your behalf. A student from Toledo that ends up with a GPA around 3.9 or above and has strong recommendations, will certainly be competitive to many higher ranked schools that take a large transfer class, including top ten schools like Michigan, Harvard, GULC, and Northwestern.

Moreover, these students have done extremely well at their respective schools. Many are on law review or other journals, active in students organizations, and maintain high GPAs.

2.) TOLEDO V. MICHIGAN STATE
If this obnoxious strand of posts hasn't already turned the original poster against Toledo, I would like to give some constructive advice...

Go to law school where you want to practice. If you want to practice in Ohio, go to Toledo. If you want to practice in Michigan, go to Michigan State. Unfortunately, both schools are on the low end in terms of prestige and employment prospects, so it's an uphill battle at any T3 school. In order to do well at a T3 or any law school, even Michigan or GULC, you MUST be aware of the realities of how legal employment works. Know that law school isn't what it used to be - even the best students have to work extremely hard to find jobs in this economy.

3.) ADVICE FOR LAW SCHOOL
Despite where you go to school, my advice is...DON'T LISTEN TO GENERALIZED ADVICE. Law school success, in class and in employment, depends on your own abilities, personality, background, and attitude. Aim to do the absolute best you can with what you've got. Don't get caught up in law school drama, law blogs, rankings, and statistics about how things should be. This is definitely easier said than done. But, it's not really relevant if you make yourself the exception. Most people don't get a 4.0 their first year of law school, but usually SOMEONE does. The same thing goes for employment: SOMEONE gets hired. Of course, you want to educated about your chances (i.e.- students from Toledo are highly, highly unlikely to get a federal clerkship & students with a 3.3 GPA (at any school) are certainly not going to be hired by Cravath). I'm not suggesting that having a "go get em" attitude can solve everything, but many times individual realities show a different perspective from statistics. Stop thinking about or believing what other people are saying about how things are in general and just aim to do your best under your own circumstances. At the end of the day, that's all you can really do, and all that you really should want to do.

4.) PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT
Additionally, remember that you are training to be a lawyer. Lawyers don't take tests and get grades - this is something only law students do. Therefore, if those are the only skills you think matter, and therefore, are the only skills you learn in law school, you will be in trouble. A lawyer is a person who holds themselves out to be a professional and can be disciplined and sometimes lose their ability to practice because of their personal behavior. I would suggest that you commit to conducting yourself in a professional manner the moment you enter your first law school function. I have seen students represent themselves poorly on facebook, in class, at social events, and in other forums, like this, that could have a bearing on their future, often without them even knowing. Obviously this blog is anonymous, but optionK's comments and conduct are troubling for a future lawyer. I would not suggest that anyone training to be a lawyer conduct themselves in that manner, whether in person or online. Unless optionK is silent in school and vents only online, he/she will face serious consequences soon.

Good luck in choosing your law school and throughout your legal career!

[optionK]

I think the above post just reiterates the points I have made. Notice how many transitional students have transferred. Why? Because they do not have to take a full course load and will garner better grades. Transitional students bear negatively on the GPA of full-time students. The transitional students have also placed Toledo in a downward spiral when it comes to rankings. Mark this post -- Toledo will be ranked as a T4 school next year AND CROSSING THAT THRESHOLD MEANS A LOT TO EMPLOYERS AND STUDENTS THAT EXPECT TO TRANSFER. If you have no aspirations of getting a job in an already tough economy or your just want to waste 3 years of your life, then Toledo is a great choice.
And no, I do not plan on transferring and never really have. The veiled threats against me are amusing and the antithesis of a law education. Perhaps paying attention in your law classes would create a better understanding.
I'll post again when the 2012 USNWR  rankings come out just to flaunt my intuition. Until then, take care and sorry you will not have a job in law if you're attending Toledo.

[ilovelawtoo]

optionK,

You're latest ridiculous post does nothing but restate the same conclusion over and over again, without any support.  Actually, I would be willing to bet that the % of transitional students who transfer is the same as the % of non-transitional students who transfer.  It is obvious that you didn't get the grades you wanted and are taking it out on the transitionals, and it's pathetic.  Furthermore, your attacks are specifically against Toledo when they should really be at the tier 3 and tier 4 in general.  At all these schools, many top students transfer.  And in this economy, all these schools are struggling to place graduates in employment.  Toledo is no different.  At least the 2L's and 3L's were blind-sided by the economy - 1L's were fully aware of the consequences of their decision to go to law school in the current economic climate, and you shouldn't be taking your bad decision out on Toledo.

[Toledo2011]

At this point, everyone's got more than enough evidence to draw their own conclusions about optionK.

Personally, I find it somewhat hysterical that he's going to stay at UT, given how much he hates the place.

But I have to agree with him that the school could fall into the fourth tier. The reasons for that are mostly financial: The pressures of the recession have forced the school to cut back on scholarship aid, and with fewer full scholarships to offer, LSAT scores have drastically fallen (there's no way, for instance, that I'd have gone to UT without the prospect of graduating debt-free). The combination of falling placement results and falling LSAT scores will certainly hurt UT in the rankings. There's also the fact that US News has tweaked the formula to take part-time stats into consideration, so essentially the transitional program doesn't really serve to help UT any more the way it was intended to under the former dean.

In the end, if you're considering UT, do your own homework. Go to the school and talk to students and ask them how happy they are with their choices. What you'll hear should inform your choices a lot more than any message board post - positive or negative.

[optionK]

Well, I really wanted to wait until the next USNWR rankings came out before posting, but useless buttholes prompt me to do otherwise.......

optionK,

You're latest ridiculous post does nothing but restate the same conclusion over and over again, without any support.

Yes, unlike your ridiculous post that does nothing to support either side and aides in creating the image that law students learn nothing about logical arguments. What is it like to get a 140 on the LSAT?

 Actually, I would be willing to bet that the % of transitional students who transfer is the same as the % of non-transitional students who transfer.
I'd suggest otherwise, as does the post that I reference in my previous post

It is obvious that you didn't get the grades you wanted and are taking it out on the transitionals, and it's pathetic.

You actually believe that I would post a single truth so that the posters could figure out who I am?? Yet another instance of why you should not be in law school. Most intelligent people could recognize that my posts are contradictory and mean nothing about who I am. And yes, I did do very well in both semester and will be one of the top 5 students at Toledo, idiot.

Furthermore, your attacks are specifically against Toledo when they should really be at the tier 3 and tier 4 in general.
Toledo is a tier 3 that will be sinking to tier 4 (see post above). So addressing Toledo, which is a tier 3, is not addressing the tier 3?? Just doing my small part to create a better world since law schools are like assholes. I'm sure you didn't get that last sentence... law schools are like assholes because everyone has one...

At all these schools, many top students transfer.  And in this economy, all these schools are struggling to place graduates in employment.
Part of the problem and not the solution. If Toledo cannot place graduates, then QUIT CLAIMING A  90-SOME PERCENT PLACEMENT RATE AFTER GRADUATION!!!!

Toledo is no different.  At least the 2L's and 3L's were blind-sided by the economy - 1L's were fully aware of the consequences of their decision to go to law school in the current economic climate, and you shouldn't be taking your bad decision out on Toledo.

I only ask for honesty. DO NOT pretend that a Toledo law degree will guarantee anything other than a position at the 7-11 counter. You should be shamed for holding true to the Toledo colors and prompting people to consider such an institution. Toledo, along with other 3rd and 4th tier law schools, should be closed down. They offer nothing but debt and despair. Be honest to those entering students that they will not receive a job that will create the return on investment to pay for law school... unless they get a full-ride and are able to pummel the transitional students. An unlikely feat unless they are 1/4th as intelligent as I am.


GOOD DAY SIR.

[Kire]

Toledo no longer accepts Transitional students beginning 2010-2011; I called UT Office of Admissions and asked direct.  Its one of the reasons why I decided to attend (along with very low tuition and small class size).  Another perk is the inexpensive cost of living.  So, if you plan on working hard, graduating with little debt, and not working for a big firm, UT will be just fine.  Don't worry about the rank of the school because it has far more to do with what you do with your degree after you graduate.  (Not all successful or financially rich people graduated from top law schools if that matters to you.  Some didn't even go to college!)  Our future is up to us to plan - not the school we graduated from.  We just have to work harder than the T14 graduates initially, but it will be worth it in the end and we may even pass some by along the way!

[ilovelaw1256]

I agree with many of the above posts, including optionK's most recent (even though s/he seems to be the person we love to hate on here). Kire, you have a lot to learn. I hope you took Toledo2011's excellent advice and did your homework. Have you asked how many students graduating this year have legal jobs, even job prospects? I would imagine close to 85% of the graduates don't have a clue what they'll be doing after the Bar exam. Sure there are the exceptions - I advocated for looking inward in my last post; but as much as we all want to believe our hard work will pay off, the facts today show that it just might not be enough. And if you are successful at Toledo...transfer. Your degree will follow you for the rest of your life and it's important to take advantage of any opportunity you have to further your career, starting with your law school. The reality is that if you attend Toledo Law and do not already have major connections in the legal world, you will be at an extreme disadvantage.

Moreover, it's not the lack of jobs or the rankings you should be worried about, it's the lack of student career services Toledo offers, especially to the struggling graduates. When this class entered Toledo, it advertised a 90% employment rate following graduation and it was a tier 2 school. Now, almost the entire class is unemployed and Toledo is essentially doing nothing to help. Even for current students, Toledo fails to provide students with even basic career resources - this is something you really need to think about. You shouldn't be paying $10,000+ to learn not to put ice in your soup on an interview! Toledo Law is also unrealistic about the employment prospects for its students, even if they recognize the tough economy. Once Toledo had a catered lunch encouraging students to apply for FEDERAL judicial clerkships (a student from Toledo has about a .0000000001% chance of getting one today), yet they fail to provide any meaningful advice about applying for state court clerkships, which are a great option where Toledo students can be competitive (even then, only the very best students are likely to receive an invitation to interview). Any advice Toledo Career Services provides could be found in two seconds on Google...I think the students deserve individual attention and creative strategies for dealing with the new legal climate - you will not get that at Toledo.

Unless you will be graduating debt-free, I would really think about your decision to attend a low-ranked law school in this economy at all, especially Toledo. I recognize that others may disagree and I hope they share their thoughts so you can get more balanced picture, but this is my honest opinion. You are optimistic now, but you will soon realize that the school you graduate from will have a huge impact on your future legal career. Although many are critical of the rankings, those schools have good reputations for a reason. Higher ranked schools are superior in many different ways and students graduating from those schools are at a huge advantage in the job market. Does this mean students from T3 & T4 schools are not as intelligent, capable, or hard-working as those from T1 or T2? - absolutely not, but they often have more access to career resources, which are an indispensable tool in this environment. The legal community has undergone DRASTIC changes over the past two years and as you enter law school (at ANY school) in this climate, you better make sure you understand what you are getting yourself into...

[DTEJD1997]

Hello:

I graduated from Toledo in 1997....

It was a VERY difficult job market back then. 

Toledo is an OK town.  There are lots of things to do near the University.  UT has a world class recreation center, with excellent pools and work out equipment.  There is also a tremendous bike path that goes through UT.  I really miss these two things and would recommend them highly.

I would recommend that you have your job/exit strategy planned out BEFORE you go to law school, OR AT THE LATEST IN YOUR 1st year of school.  If you don't have a job lined up, you are in trouble.  Most of the people I graduated with, that actually practiced law, wound up with relatively low paying/high stress jobs.  A couple of them got OK paying jobs, but nobody I knew was making "good" money.  I would question the veracity of 80% employment.  That was not the case in my day, and I doubt that things have gotten any better.

Making money is going to be VERY, VERY, VERY important to you if you have taken on student loans.

Student loans are a terrible, terrible burden.  My advice is to not take out MORE THAN 1 years income in student loans.  Please be realistic about that 1st year salary.  Most UT attorneys that I knew were making $35-50K 1 or 2 years out of school.  NOBODY that I knew had a glamorous or even "nice" job.  Most people were slogging it out in government positions, small firms, or hanging their own shingle.

Think about this....If you have taken out loans for 3+ years of school, and you have ANY DIFFICULTY AT ALL getting a job after graduation, you are really going to be "behind the 8 ball".  If you have $100K in student loan debt, that is going to be difficult to pay off, EVEN IF YOU HAVE A GOOD JOB. 

YOU MUST HIT THE GROUND RUNNING AFTER GRADUATION.  I can not emphasize that enough. 

Also remember, a lot of the interest that you pay on loans IS NOT TAX DEDUCTIBLE.  The tax deduction starts dropping away when you are making $50k & over.

Career services was not much help.  HOWEVER, I can't fault them too much, as there was not much that anyone could do...

In the end, if you work hard and apply yourself, you will get a good education.  HOWEVER, the question you have answer is:

WAS IT WORTH THE PRICE?