Thank you Thane. I got your book yesterday and spent the entire day reading it. It was a truly amazing book. It brought tears to my eyes. Knowing the reality and why things are the way they are, and the fact that I was not aware of what was truly going on and what was expected of me as a student, I was so ashamed of my ignorance. It is amazing how I did everything that you mentioned were ineffective- spending first few weeks being buried in casebooks, being frustrated at the professors and classes, trying desperately to read the supplements without actually absorbing them, and constantly telling myself that I will be okay while I KNEW I was not. The fact that I found out everything just now, after a semester is over, really hurts. I wonder why anyone at my school, including the person who has an academic advising job, could not tell me what you wrote in the book. I did not realize just how much anger I have built within myself over the past few months. (I know this sounds very immature) I want to blame others, but then again, it is all my fault for not knowing.
One thing that I felt a little confused about was the part about how to fit your knowledge of black letter law together with what is going on in class.
the bad: It is hard to say anything bad about the book that I really liked, but I think you could have thought of your audience in broader ways. Maybe not everyone who picks up your book is not someone, by your (or anyone else's) standard, a fine student at a reasonably good school. Maybe that person might not be making B's, maybe that person is failing. Maybe that person might be attending tier 4 school and would be discouraged to read your book when you mention stories about Harvard law or students who are getting only 'average grades'. I know that a person who would stop reading your book simply for reasons like these did not really try to understand what you were trying to convey, but that is also how many people are like. For instance, and this may sound contradicting because I just praised you for this, I feel like there could have been a better way to emphasize (to a pre-law student) that college studying habits won't work than simply being repetitive about it- or maybe there isn't a better way, and one should just go through a semester of law school and find out for herself. If you could come up with a better way to do this, that will be a huge plus.
Anyways, I do not know how to thank you for writing such a wonderful book. This book will save my lives.
Law school sucks that way. By the time you figure it out it's time to graduate. Just keep working and you will do fine. As for law school grading, it's super arbitrary in my experience.
Quote from: Thane Messinger on February 23, 2010, 09:37:32 PMWe can go about this in two ways. We tend to think that law school is about the law. Not exactly. Clearly there is law in law school. One would be shocked otherwise, yes? But that's not all it is. In reality, law school is about the law in light of fact patterns. So, simply knowing a rule is nice ("in the majority of jurisdictions a plaintiff's recovery is limited under comparative negligence to the net of its non-negligence") . . . but that's not enough. To simply write that on an exam does nothing. (Or, more precisely, it's a "C" response.) What is needed is to understand how that rule affects a claim for a person in a set of facts, and defenses for the other side. So, if Plaintiff P does a, b, and c, and Defendants D, E, and F have done x, y, and z, you'll reason through (i.e., conduct a lawyerlike analysis) what happens with that claim. Or, more correctly, those claims (and defenses, and counterclaims, and counter-defenses...). Legal analysis is the process of separating all of those potential claims and counterclaims and sifting them through the sieve of the rules. I think this point needs emphasis. Ignoring one side of the issue at the preference of another is probably the most fatal mistake new law students make in their pursuit of a "right" answer. Lay people typically judge one side correct before they even begin analyzing the issue, and their prejudice misleads them. It's important to overcome that.BTW, Thane, your replies are absolutely exceptional. I haven't read anything like them before.
We can go about this in two ways. We tend to think that law school is about the law. Not exactly. Clearly there is law in law school. One would be shocked otherwise, yes? But that's not all it is. In reality, law school is about the law in light of fact patterns. So, simply knowing a rule is nice ("in the majority of jurisdictions a plaintiff's recovery is limited under comparative negligence to the net of its non-negligence") . . . but that's not enough. To simply write that on an exam does nothing. (Or, more precisely, it's a "C" response.) What is needed is to understand how that rule affects a claim for a person in a set of facts, and defenses for the other side. So, if Plaintiff P does a, b, and c, and Defendants D, E, and F have done x, y, and z, you'll reason through (i.e., conduct a lawyerlike analysis) what happens with that claim. Or, more correctly, those claims (and defenses, and counterclaims, and counter-defenses...). Legal analysis is the process of separating all of those potential claims and counterclaims and sifting them through the sieve of the rules.
So I understand what lawyers do is to try to establish each element of a claim, and since casebook (which is largely appellate decisions clarifying/explaining each element in detail) focuses on how each element should be applied under detailed circumstances, it alone wouldn't be effective in learning the BLL. 1.Would you say using someone else's outline (instead of creating your own) could actually hurt you more than help you? I already have an outline for the class I'll take next semester. I plan to use the headings and title of cases as guidance as to what I need to read on E&E. Do you think this is ok?
2.This girl I got the outline from claims to have gotten an A. When I looked at her outline (about 40 pages) it was filled with case briefs and bunch of rules. (Promissory estoppel, ___ v. ____, rule) If what I understand is correct, these rules (40 pages of info) are mainly to clarify/explain the elements of each law. So if I added information about the BLL (general rule about other elements of each law, history, rationale etc) I assume that will be A LOT of information. Considering what I need to do on an exam is legal analysis (prove each claim/ argue against it), making such outline is essential right? (I will of course try to trim it down and make it as set of applicable rules containing elements to be proven)
3.This may be a stupid question, but... does every law have its own elements? I figure primary purpose of most lawsuits is to recover and what lawyers do is proving each element of the law/doctrine. Could there be any doctrine/law that has no elements? or to put it more correctly, can a lawyer do something else in a courtroom other than proving elements? (please understand this question comes from a (legally) uneducated lay person )
4.What sources of CO would you suggest? What is good for laying out elements of each doctrine?
To Thane, a question...
So I understand what lawyers do is to try to establish each element of a claim, and since casebook (which is largely appellate decisions clarifying/explaining each element in detail) focuses on how each element should be applied under detailed circumstances, it alone wouldn't be effective in learning the BLL.
1.Would you say using someone else's outline (instead of creating your own) could actually hurt you more than help you? I already have an outline for the class I'll take next semester. I plan to use the headings and title of cases as guidance as to what I need to read on E&E. Do you think this is ok?
To CJScalia:Thanks for giving your insight. Even though I am hesitant to believe people about whatever GPA they say they got(not saying you are lying, but i find it quite funny how nearly every 2L and 3L I talked to said they got 4.0 and told me so much useless stuff), I still think you are right on many points, especially, importance of trying to find as many issues as you could and casebook method being seriously flawed. I also think your exam approach (trying to find relevant case, and distinguish it from facts at hand) to be very good. But, isn't this only one way to approach law school exam (analogy reasoning, which could be a form of a legal analysis)? Sometimes, finding relevant cases isn't easy. Professors of course know this when they make exams, and deliberately try to create difficult fact pattern that doesn't relate to any cases we've learned. Any insights regarding this matter would be very much appreciated. (Thane, Please help!)