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Author Topic: For Those of You Asking "Should I Go to Law School"...  (Read 36014 times)

Hamilton

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Re: For Those of You Asking "Should I Go to Law School"...
« Reply #60 on: September 27, 2010, 02:27:03 PM »
Is this supposed to be an argument in support of the idea that it is the hard-working go-getters who are landing jobs in law and everyone not getting a job is a lazy slacker not willing to put in the effort?  If so, it falls very flat.

The above listed blogs can be dismissed as being written by bitter JDs who just did not have what it took, or who somehow felt entitled to a job - but folks do so at their own peril.  I think these guys make an excellent point that anyone paying full price for a JD from a T3/T4 school and wracking up 6 figure debt is really taking a big risk.  They are providing a forum to warn 0Ls that law school is not a guaranteed path to wealth and glamour - contrary to the product that the law schools continue to sell.

To show that it matters how hard YOU are willing to work.  I have two friends, went to the same school, had the same major, and GPA were closes (3.6 v. 3.5).  One has a NYC job at larger company.  Other is working for a local township.  And then one with the lower GPA is the one in NYC

bigs5068

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Re: For Those of You Asking "Should I Go to Law School"...
« Reply #61 on: September 27, 2010, 03:00:46 PM »
I think these guys make an excellent point that anyone paying full price for a JD from a T3/T4 school and wracking up 6 figure debt is really taking a big risk.  They are providing a forum to warn 0Ls that law school is not a guaranteed path to wealth and glamour - contrary to the product that the law schools continue to sell.


I would not disagree with that for a second, but going into any form of education anywhere except Harvard is a risk. A lot of people should not go to 4 year colleges, if you get a 3.3 high school GPA and 1100 on your SAT. You are not going to Harvard or Yale. You will probably go to some state college and rack up debt. It may or may not work out. Most people are NOT exceptional. Nothing is going to be handed to you and there is a lot of luck involved in getting a job. Education is a scam in all fields and from all institutions. I mean admissions officers in all forms of education write books on how to impress them enough to LET you pay them to get an education that is not a guarantee of anything. It is a ridiculous system, but it is the way it is and you need to deal with it. Or try change the structure of it, but writing a blog about how unfair everything is not helping these people.

For any 0L law school is difficult, Harvard is a better school than Cooley, if you go to the 49th best school and the 104th best student nobody is going to come knocking your door down to hand you a job. The real world is tough and NOTHING like school get used to it.

haus

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Re: For Those of You Asking "Should I Go to Law School"...
« Reply #62 on: September 27, 2010, 03:09:08 PM »
Is this supposed to be an argument in support of the idea that it is the hard-working go-getters who are landing jobs in law and everyone not getting a job is a lazy slacker not willing to put in the effort?  If so, it falls very flat.

The above listed blogs can be dismissed as being written by bitter JDs who just did not have what it took, or who somehow felt entitled to a job - but folks do so at their own peril.  I think these guys make an excellent point that anyone paying full price for a JD from a T3/T4 school and wracking up 6 figure debt is really taking a big risk.  They are providing a forum to warn 0Ls that law school is not a guaranteed path to wealth and glamour - contrary to the product that the law schools continue to sell.

To show that it matters how hard YOU are willing to work.  I have two friends, went to the same school, had the same major, and GPA were closes (3.6 v. 3.5).  One has a NYC job at larger company.  Other is working for a local township.  And then one with the lower GPA is the one in NYC

Hamilton,

I agree that life has risk. A decision to go after a JD is a risk. There are no guarantees that it will lead to a good career or anything else for that matter. What gets me about much of these bloggers and those that pop up in forums such as this one is that they very rarely seem to put in the time to provide some alternative.

I am an old geezer, I am making over 100k and have been for awhile now. It was only about 4 years ago that I got around to completing my BS degree, and all told it had very little impact in me getting to where I am, but I saw the writing on the wall and noticed that if I want to go further there are some things that I can do to improve my odds. So I completed the BS, I am working on the Masters now and contemplating the JD.

These efforts are not help me bust into a new field, they are to help me move further up the ladder in the field that I am already in.

I can easily see that for many pursuing a JD (esp. if taking on a great deal of debt to do it), could have negative consequences. This should be obvious to anyone who is capable of getting into a decent program. Although I would argue that the cost of opportunity for most law students is fairly low, as a great deal of them do not have the skills or experience needed to receive highly rewarding employment prior to going to law school. It is unlikely that by earning a JD at a respectable school that the long line of 100k + jobs that they would have otherwise been offered will have gone away, as they simply did not exist in the first place.

One needs to find a way to make themselves valuable. While a JD may well be part of that, for many it may not be enough by itself. What that something is will vary by the individual, but be prepared to do what others do not want to do. Find problems that need to be solved and solve them (or at least come up with a possible approach), if you cannot find a problem you are simply not looking hard enough.

I will continue to be turned off to the cries of those who have done everything right, got their degree and found no magic carriage to take them to the world of expense accounts and window offices. The competition does not end with an acceptance letter to law school, at graduation day, or when you pass the bar. Everyday you will need to get up and do more then the person across from you, everyday you will need to fight for a win. As we enter a world that more and more white collar work is being farmed out overseas (India I am looking at you...), there are NO SAFE SPOTS, there is no easy win, but for many avoiding law school is not the right option (while you are at it, why not avoid college, and perhaps that the last few years of high school so that you can get a good jump at the Asst. Manager slot over at the Taco Bell, sure the pay sucks but think how great it is not to have school debt or to have to worry about the Junior Prom).

Lets hear instead about what TO DO.

louiebstef

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Re: For Those of You Asking "Should I Go to Law School"...
« Reply #63 on: September 27, 2010, 03:12:06 PM »
"Lets hear instead about what TO DO."

Haus----

AMEN brother!
"Why be a lawyer? I'm already an ass.  Might as well go professional!"

bigs5068

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Re: For Those of You Asking "Should I Go to Law School"...
« Reply #64 on: September 27, 2010, 03:16:04 PM »
I could not agree more HAUS. In regards to these bloggers is it not amazing that they claim to be looking so hard for a job, but have time to write these blogs. I have written about 10 posts on this site today and I could have applied to 10 jobs in that time.  Maybe I would end up getting a better gig than I have had I done that. However, It is not my schools fault that I am writing on here so often or the educational structure it is my own. I love how nobody takes any accountability for their failure on those sites. Absolutely nothing is their fault and it is 100% their schools fault that they cannot find employment.

louiebstef

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Re: For Those of You Asking "Should I Go to Law School"...
« Reply #65 on: September 27, 2010, 03:32:20 PM »
Bigs,

Quit.  I'm startin' ta get that gospel feelin.  AMENNNNNNNN.
 ;)

When will people realize that a loser is a loser, whether they be degreed or not?  What is my definition of a loser?  Exactly what Bigs said.  Quit yer bitchin and finger pointing and get OUT there.  Nothing wrong with you volunteering to do some Pro Bono work for the community, since you're ostensibly UNEMPLOYED anyway.  Who knows? You may even meet someone that could help you in your career.

OH...SORRY.  I realize that'll cut into your internet time bitchin about what a raw deal you got.
"Why be a lawyer? I'm already an ass.  Might as well go professional!"

Hamilton

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Re: For Those of You Asking "Should I Go to Law School"...
« Reply #66 on: September 27, 2010, 04:04:59 PM »
Again, I think this is a very unfair characterization of the folks who cannot find work and it is an innacurate characterization of the folks who write those blogs.

I love how nobody takes any accountability for their failure on those sites. Absolutely nothing is their fault and it is 100% their schools fault that they cannot find employment.

bigs5068

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Re: For Those of You Asking "Should I Go to Law School"...
« Reply #67 on: September 27, 2010, 04:35:03 PM »
I just looked at two of them on third tier toilet the guy says this. On page 43 of Suffolk University’s 2009 IRS Form 990, you will see that university president and “professor of law” David J. Sargent made $832,782 in TOTAL COMPENSATION for 2008. Yes, that is one premium salary, isn’t it?

On page 45, the breakdown is as follows: $463,479 in base compensation; $89,816 in bonus and incentive compensation; $47,173 in other compensation; $211,136 in deferred compensation; and $21,178 in non-taxable benefits.

This guy is getting Suffolk's tax returns and reading through them? Really this guy is looking so hard for a job that he is delving into the University President's salary and IRS report. That is a ridiculous waste of time. *&^% Law Jobs is a listing of jobs that are not that great. Go to Craigslist in any profession and you will some jobs that do not pay well. That is freaking life. Now the Suffolk President's salary might be to high, but that has no impact on this guys ability to find a job. If he wants to make a report on how the price for schooling is outrageous I am all for it. However, for an individual complaining about finding work delving through University President's tax returns does not sound like a productive use of time can you agree with that?

haus

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Re: For Those of You Asking "Should I Go to Law School"...
« Reply #68 on: September 27, 2010, 04:39:21 PM »
Again, I think this is a very unfair characterization of the folks who cannot find work and it is an innacurate characterization of the folks who write those blogs.

I love how nobody takes any accountability for their failure on those sites. Absolutely nothing is their fault and it is 100% their schools fault that they cannot find employment.

Hamilton,

I spent a stretch of my life being homeless. I have no problem understanding that bad things happen. I get it.

I am just disappointed that of this subset of people who feel that they have been burned by law school (perhaps college as well) have not managed to come up with anything other then "hey this can fail', or in some of the more dramatic 'hey you are all doomed because I and the people I know failed'.

What now? Roll over, play dead?

They are right in that the image of success for everyone who gets in is a crock. Maybe there was a time in the history of law school or business school, that anyone who got in and made it to an interview, got through the thing without drooling on themselves and the jobs offers came falling from the sky like confetti. That is not what we have now, in anything.

Older workers will be retiring at a lesser rate (they need the income to pay their bills), companies will be more cautious in creating new jobs to avoid being on the hook to pay workers unless then know for a fact that they have plenty of work to keep them fully tasked. It is tough, hopefully it will be getting better, but it is tougher then it has been.

In the game of basketball, when you are passing the ball, you do not pass it to where your teammate is, instead you pass it to where they will be (my apologies is the use of the basketball analogy intrudes upon Bigs trademark) . When you are looking for a job, you should do what you can to position yourself, with the background, training, skills for what employees will want, not what they have needed in the past. Find something, get involved, make yourself useful. Find a way to demonstrate that you can resolve problems. It no guarantee, but we are all playing the odds, and as such those who take steps to make the odds favor them will have a better shot.

Hamilton

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Re: For Those of You Asking "Should I Go to Law School"...
« Reply #69 on: September 28, 2010, 08:23:35 AM »
A lot of the derision posted by the scambloggers is aimed at T3s and T4s because they charge as much as a T1 and they continue to "sell the dream."  They are also critical of the ABA b/c in a time where the legal market is shrinking we are graduating record numbers of JDs and opening MORE law schools.  The laws of supply and demand need to come into play at some point here.  I applaud what they are doing because I think they are forcing a conversation about the truth-in-advertising when it comes to employment and salary statistics published by the schools.  Someone is finally out there loudly and openly calling 'BS' and challenging the veracity of the statistics.

WRT their blogging about their difficulties - they can't have a personal life?  We cannot assume that b/c they spend an hour or so a day blogging that they are not working hard to find work.  We all have our hobbies and passtimes.  They are laying their experiences out there for folks to see and consider when thinking about law school - that is bad?  Isn't it prident due dilligence to get all the facts and both sides of a story when making a decision?  I have never read "poor me, this is not my fault, this is all someone else's fault" on those blogs - I have simply seen them as folks telling the the story of the downside of law school, highlighting the risk of taking on $150K in debt, and describing the difficulties out there. 

I would hope that someone sitting near the bottom of their class at a T4 and paying $850/credit hour would heed those warning and think about what they are doing - the law school won't do it for them.  Alternatively, I would hope a 0L with no passion for law but thinking law school seems like a good idea and a sure path to a good job and wealth would have his eyes opened to reality and do a little more research before committing to law school.

This is no different than the folks selling gold right now - all of the ads telling you about the security of gold and why you should invest in it.  The SEC requires them to provide full disclosure on trading the commodity - there is no such requirement on the selling of JDs - so these guys are offering the other perspective.