TRICKY T1 vs. T2 Situation

[spaa]

 

Hi,

Any useful info please?? I'm considering U. of Minn, UC Davis and University of San Diego. I've read that the rankings matter, but so does location. After graduation I think I'd like to live in Southern CA, but I cannot ignore that Minn. is ranked 20 in USNWR. USD is 61, UC Davis is 35.

Any USD, Davis and Minn. graduates with experience on how these three schools would play in the San Diego market?

I wonder at what point does geography trumps USNWR ranking...

[OG Loc]

I'm considering UMN too; I know Minn has an on-location So Cal interview fair (along w/NYC, Chicago and DC), which is something to consider, but most firms interviewing at those events expect top grades (top quarter usually).  I'm sure Davis makes efforts to help students network down there as well, and has plenty of alumni in the area, but it is a regional school as well.  I think the best thing to do is to visit the schools decide if you'll be OK with permanantly staying in Nor Cal or the Twin Cities; it's the wrong time for those of us outside the T14 to be choosy about where we work if we aren't bound to any area, and those UMN and UCD are clearly better and will yield better employment opportunities - in their respective regions.  Debt should be a huge consideration too - I wouldn't take on any more than 100K at any of those schools.

[nerfco]

I have a hard time believing that Minnesota's marginally-better rankings than UC Davis would help it place better in California. Would you be happy for three years in Minnesota, or just waiting it out in the frozen tundra, wishing you were somewhere warmer?

I think this decision should be between Davis and USD, unless Minnesota somehow involves taking on less debt than the other two.

PS: Nalpdirectory.com lists 5 San Diego firms that do on-campus interviews at UMN, 11 at UCD, and 15 at USD. Unsure how updated this information is, but San Diego might be the best choice, given that it will also allow you to be in San Diego during law school, which may work well for internships at smaller firms during law school, and "networking." (Whatever that is.)

[nealric]

Despite its high ranking, Minnesota does not place well outside of Minnesota. If you want to live in California after gradation, stay in California.

[spaa]

Thanks for the help!

[Pardon Johnny Cash.]

I've heard that Cali is a particularly difficult state to find a job in without an out of state law degree.

[mbw]

Despite its high ranking, Minnesota does not place well outside of Minnesota. If you want to live in California after gradation, stay in California.

I'm going to disagree a bit here, as I almost did attend Minnesota, and my plans have always included the possibility of practicing in California.

Do Minnesota grads tend to remain in Minnesota?  Sure - but there's never been any indication that it's not because of self-selection.  Minneapolis is a freakin' wonderful city!  And grads of The U are top dogs in a top 15 metro area (size-wise).  However, what a lot of Easterners don't understand is that there aren't a lot of top schools between the Mississippi and the Pacific - in fact, outside of the three in California - there are three - Texas, WUSTLA and Minnesota.  That's six out of the top 20 for over half the country - area-wise.  Minnesotans who have sought work on the Left Coast have been fairly successful - at least, that was what I heard from the administration last year.  Have things changed, ITE?  Probably.  But I still would argue that a degree from Minnesota is not necessarily a negative in California.

[vap]

If you are from southern California, you probably won't have a problem returning there if you go to UMinn.  But if you're in at UMin, can't you get a full ride to one of the southern California schools (USD, Loyola, etc.)?  That would be a better option, IMO.

[nerfco]

I'm going to disagree a bit here, as I almost did attend Minnesota, and my plans have always included the possibility of practicing in California.

Do Minnesota grads tend to remain in Minnesota?  Sure - but there's never been any indication that it's not because of self-selection.  Minneapolis is a freakin' wonderful city!  And grads of The U are top dogs in a top 15 metro area (size-wise).  However, what a lot of Easterners don't understand is that there aren't a lot of top schools between the Mississippi and the Pacific - in fact, outside of the three in California - there are three - Texas, WUSTLA and Minnesota.  That's six out of the top 20 for over half the country - area-wise.  Minnesotans who have sought work on the Left Coast have been fairly successful - at least, that was what I heard from the administration last year.  Have things changed, ITE?  Probably.  But I still would argue that a degree from Minnesota is not necessarily a negative in California.

Self-selection is true, but only to an extent. I already pointed out that more San Diego firms will do OCI at both Davis and USD than at UMN, and by at least twice as much. Minnesota's reputation is not as strong as UT, for example, and you will not find an alumni base in San Diego near as strong as from UC Davis or USD.

The value of US News rankings diminishes quite rapidly once you get outside the top 15 or so schools. UMN may be ranked more highly than UCD, but I suggest that many experiences lawyers in San Diego don't read US News religiously, and may not know that.

In short, I wouldn't choose UMN unless it was cheaper than Davis and USD. Also, your "west of the Mississippi" line was pretty arbitrary--I doubt California employers see UMN as being that much closer to California than the Chicago schools, or perhaps even Michigan.

[OG Loc]

Of Minnesota placement outside the TCs:
Below is the list of employers interviewing on campus this year, published by the career services office and available on the admitted students' website.  As you can see, most employers are in Minneapolis and almost all are from the midwest.  I would not go to Minnesota if I didn't want to stay.  That said, I'd like my chances of finding a job in Minnesota from UMN better than in California from Davis or USD, because it really is the best school in the area by a mile.

And there are only 6 participants listed in the Minn./Iowa west coast interview program I mentioned earlier and only three are from southern Cal, so I wouldn't count on that at all.  The New York one has 10 and the DC one has 20, for anyone else who cares.

2009 University of Minnesota On-Campus Interview Employers
Anthony Ostlund Baer & Louwagie, P.A. (Minneapolis, MN)
Baker & Hostetler LLP (Washington, DC)
Bassford Remele, P.A. (Minneapolis, MN)
Best & Flanagan LLP (Minneapolis, MN)
Blethen, Gage & Krause (Mankato, MN)
Bowman and Brooke LLP (Minneapolis, MN)
Briggs and Morgan (Minneapolis, MN)
Carlson, Caspers, Vandenburgh & Lindquist (Minneapolis, MN)
Crompton, Seager & Tufte, LLC (Minneapolis, MN)
Deloitte & Touche (Minneapolis, MN)
Dorsey & Whitney LLP (Minneapolis, MN)
Fabyanske, Westra, Hart & Thomson, P.A. (Minneapolis, MN)
Faegre & Benson LLP (Minneapolis, MN)
Felhaber, Larson, Fenlon & Vogt, P.A. (Minneapolis, MN)
Fish & Richardson P.C. (Minneapolis, MN)
Fogg & Powers, LLC (Minneapolis, MN)
Foley & Mansfield PLLP (Minneapolis, MN)
Fredrikson & Byron P.A. (Minneapolis, MN)
Gislason & Hunter LLP (New Ulm, MN)
Godfrey & Kahn, S.C. (Milwaukee, WI)
Gray Plant Mooty (Minneapolis, MN)
Hanft Fride (Duluth, MN)
Kinney & Lange, P.A. (Minneapolis, MN)
Knobbe, Martens, Olson & Bear LLP (Riverside, CA)
Larkin, Hoffman Daly & Lindren Ltd. (Bloomington, MN)
Leonard, Street and Deinard PA (Minneapolis, MN)
Lindquist & Vennum P.L.L.P. (Minneapolis, MN)
Maschka, Riedy & Ries, P.L.L.P. (Mankato, MN)
Maslon Edelman Borman & Brand LLP (Minneapolis, MN)
Michael Best & Friedrich LLP (Milwaukee, WI)
Minnesota 3rd Judicial District (Albert Lea, MN)
Minnesota 3rd Judicial District (Austin, MN)
Nichols Kaster, P.L.L.P. (Minneapolis, MN)
Oppenheimer Wolff & Donnelly, LLP (Minneapolis, MN)
Patterson, Thuente, Skaar & Christiansen (Minneapolis, MN)
Rajkowski Hansmeier Ltd. (St. Cloud, MN)
Robins, Kaplan, Miller & Ciresi L.L.P. (Minneapolis, MN)
Ruder Ware (Wausau, WI)
Sherman & Howard L.L.C. (Denver, CO)
Shumaker & Sieffert (Woodbury, MN)
Siegel Brill Greupner Duffy & Foster, P.A. (Minneapolis, MN)
Thompson Coburn LLP (St. Louis, MO)
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (St. Paul, MN)
U.S. Dept. of the Treasury-IRS-Office of the Chief Counsel (Washington, DC)
U.S. Dept. of the Army JAG Corps (worldwide)
U.S. Dept. of the Treasury-Comptroller of the Currency-Central District Office (Chicago, IL)
U.S. Dept. of the Transportation- Honors Attorney Program (Washington, DC)
United States Air Force JAG Corps (Grand Forks AFB, ND)
Von Briesen & Roper s.c. (Milwaukee, WI)
Winthrop & Weinstine PA (Minneapolis, MN)