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Author Topic: How do I get out of ED  (Read 4948 times)

Ninja1

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Re: How do I get out of ED
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2009, 05:15:53 AM »

Do you think Duke would really give a scholarship to someone who signed a binding agreement and then decides to try to hold them over a barrel?  I would think that Duke would be more than willing to say have fun toiling around for the next year.

Zero chance Duke will give a scholarship by waving an HLS acceptance in their face.  ZERO.  It is an absurd thing to do.  Some people on this site just give the most terrible advice that it boggles my mind and actually makes me angry!!!

Duke is far more likely to REVOKE your ED than to give you one cent of scholarship money if you do that, and not only that, they will probably tell other schools to blacklist your ass.


Why zero chance? Duke is < Harvard, they're aware of that fact, and schools give out scholarship money based on your ability to get into better schools. The ED factor is unique here, but I fail to see why that absolutely precludes the possibility of the OP shaking some cash out of Dook by leveraging the H acceptance. Sure OP might just end up sitting out a year, but if they're fine with that, it's no big deal.

As for the quality of my advice, aren't you still working on the LSAT? I've done the application process myself and I've seen more than a few people leverage acceptances at better schools into scholarships at lesser schools. Granted I've never seen it with an ED app, but I also don't know anyone that got accepted into somewhere on ED, so I really don't know if it would work or not. And besides, all I said was that the OP could try it, not that they should.

Lol at the mafioso outlook on law schools. You're not going to get blacklisted because you decided not to go to school for a year after asking for scholarship money. This is a belief born of the myth and fear propagated by 0Ls. OP might not get back into Duke if they break their ED, but they're not going to be blackballed either.

Whether you have gone through the actual application process (once) does not in any way legitimize your advice or signify that you  are in a better position than me to offer advice.  Early Decision is binding.  It means that if you get in, you must immediately withdraw all other applications. It means that if you get in you have absolutely no opportunity to  accept an offer from another school.  Telling Duke that you will not go at all unless they give you scholarship money because you have a Harvard acceptance is ridiculous. While he won't be blacklisted per se, it is still possible that the admissions office shares this kind of behavior with other schools.  Schools do talk to each other.  If he were to take your advice and go to Duke waving that HLS acceptance in their face, and then he decides after all not to go to Duke after Duke immediately denies his request for scholarship money, there is a great chance that Duke admissions will be making some calls. This will not help OP in the following admissions cycle.


As for legitimacy and quality of advice, I've been through the process, you've trolled the message boards. I have done the things you've only read about. Hopefully you can join the ranks soon, but for now, you're just a guy that's read some stuff.

I'm not saying for OP to leverage the acceptance, I'm saying to leverage the ability to get accepted. Reread my first post, I said OP is done at Harvard this year. Unless the OP no longer has the freedom to not go to law school, they can leave ED so long as they don't go somewhere else.

And besides, OP doesn't need to say "Harvard", they can just say something to the effect of "better opportunities", which could be any number of things including non-law opportunities.

So tell me how you can be so certain that there would be a "great chance" Duke would call Harvard and narc on the OP? Have you worked in Duke's admissions office? I don't know that they wouldn't, but you don't know that they would.
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Re: How do I get out of ED
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2009, 12:53:30 PM »
I applied ED to Duke.  I didnít think I could get into a better school (Iím an URM).  I got into Duke but then got accepted by Harvard!  Is there any way to get out of the Duke commitment?  What if I wait a year and ask Harvard to defer my acceptance?

The only way out of it is to withdraw all law school applications, including throwing that harvard acceptance under the bridge.  You can tell Duke that you have decided not to go to law school.  In the following year, you can reapply and say that you have decided to attend law school after all.  However selling yourself again may be difficult - they will wonder why you turned them down the first time.

I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that ED only means you have to commit to that law school only if you decide to attend law school.  You have the fundamental right to not go to law school at all next year.

That said, I'm not sure how you could have underestimated the strength of your application to this degree.  Applying to Duke ED is for people who have zero chance of getting into HLS.  Personally, I think you are too misinformed to deserve that Harvard acceptance, IMO.


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Re: How do I get out of ED
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2009, 09:20:50 AM »
So tell me how you can be so certain that there would be a "great chance" Duke would call Harvard and narc on the OP? Have you worked in Duke's admissions office? I don't know that they wouldn't, but you don't know that they would.

I don't think Duke can call Harvard, however I think LSAC can.  When you sign the ED contract and get accepted, I think LSAC notifies the other schools.  I believe this happened to someone who applied ED to Columbia...does anyone remember that?
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Ninja1

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Re: How do I get out of ED
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2009, 06:11:35 PM »
So tell me how you can be so certain that there would be a "great chance" Duke would call Harvard and narc on the OP? Have you worked in Duke's admissions office? I don't know that they wouldn't, but you don't know that they would.

I don't think Duke can call Harvard

I'm almost positive that they do and that schools regularly are in contact with each other.

Based upon... ?
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Ninja1

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Re: How do I get out of ED
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2009, 06:12:14 PM »

As for legitimacy and quality of advice, I've been through the process, you've trolled the message boards. I have done the things you've only read about. Hopefully you can join the ranks soon, but for now, you're just a guy that's read some stuff.


This really made me LoL.  There are many, many top admissions consultants who never applied to law school. Filling out a few forms means nothing.

Admissions consultants are generally frauds and hacks in my opinion.
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changethegame

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Re: How do I get out of ED
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2009, 04:35:31 AM »
How did you guys do on the reading comp portion of the LSAT? I'm guessing not too well. I am being severely misquoted here. I have made absolutely no statements about the relative qualities of these schools, only their thought processes insofar as URM's are concerned. And, clearly you are not URM's or, if you are, not URM's who have had the pleasure of being admitted to T14's and rejected by top-25's. The only thing I am saying is that OP had a right to be unsure b/c the law admissions game is wildly unpredictable for URM's.

Even OP himself has misunderstood me, as I was defending him. Secondly, I am sayinmg EXACTLY that URM's and other students attend non-HYS schools for personal reasons. That's the point, which is why i said, "Not everyone needs to drop H-Bombs for the rest of their lives to feel successful". A URM from North Carolina or Chicago might choose the elite home school over HYS or one of the other top-10's for personal reasons or "logistics"...specialties, family concerns, money/cost/scholarships, fellowships, mentorships, etc.  

I am defending OP, get that straight. But I do believe he should honor his commitment for two reasons: 1) He should avoid setting a bad precedent in his career by reneging on his commitment, and 2) if he was admitted to Harvard as a 1L, he stands a good chance of getting in as a transfer if he's in the top-15% or better at Duke.

And I stand by everything else I said, as well. URM's either have the stuff for T-14 or they don't. The way in which adcoms view each URM candidate will differ slightly at each school. A URM can be rejected at Duke or GULC but get into Penn and Yale. i am not saying that these schools are equal, I am not saying that this SHOULD happen...I am saying that it DOES happen. I know from personal experience. Argue the point until you are blue in the face, but you are working against irrefutable facts here.

changethegame

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Re: How do I get out of ED
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2009, 04:42:22 AM »
I think some of you are being a bit presumptuous. A URM's chances for admission at any T-14 are just about the same across the board; either he's a good candidate or he's not...period.

Admissions is a much wilder game for URM's (especially African-Americans and Native-Americans/Indians).

Because "soft" factors are actually "hard" for them, it's much more difficult to predict which schools will want them, particularly when talking about top schools, b/c they intuitively place differenct weights on the intangibles.

At Duke and Harvard, for example, a URM's having overcome severe impoverishment might be worth 10-12 points on the LSAT,raising a 158 LSAT scorer to 168-170 (well within range for admission with $$$ at any top school), or a 163 to 173-175 (an automatic admit with $$$ at any school).

There's no real science to it, so i can see how a URM candidate might underestimate his chances of getting into Harvard. Besides, there are students every year who turn down Harvard to go to schools like Northwestern, Penn, Columbia, UVA, etc. Many of you may not want to believe this, but not everybody needs to drop "H-Bombs" for the rest of their lives to be or feel successful.  

If you're going to direct your post at me, then at least do it outright.  

Are you really saying that the URMs have equivalent stats, on average, across the T14?  Are you fk'in serious?  Do you really think that URMs at HYS have stats that are no different than a UVA or a Northwestern?  Get Real!!!


I can see someone applying to Duke and HLS regular decision and seriously doubting that he or she will get into HLS.  But to apply to Duke binding ED and have the qualifications to get into HLS is an action that is hard to comprehend.  This is one of the most misinformed actions I have seen to date.





No! I am NOT saying that URM's have the same "stats", necessarily, across all T-14's (if you look back, I mentioned "qualifications", meaning holistic predictors: grades, LSAT, soft factors like W.E., CMU Svc, LOR's, overcoming disadvantage, etc.). I am saying that URM's who are qualified for T-14 tend to be evaluated in a more holistic fashion than the typical white students, and that, while they generally tend to have great objective stats across T-14's, their soft factors come into consideration more often, and that can make the process much less predictable. It is possible to find more than a few URM's at Northwestern with better numbers than URM's at Harvard (African American, Latino, Indian). It is this dynamic that threw OP. He wasn't prepared for the prospect of getting into Harvard, (although one would question why he applied at all). OP's situation totally supports what I am telling you.

And remember..."QUALIFICATIONS" are different from "STATS". Don't interchange the two.

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Re: How do I get out of ED
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2009, 09:37:34 AM »
Changedthegame,

I'm not trying to be rude, but you constantly claim to be misunderstood or state that others are missing the point.  For someone who only has 16 total posts, the frequency of all the misunderstandings suggests that there's a real issue in your clarity and ability to express ideas.  I'm not arguing your major point or any of your points, however, I think it's important to mention that if people are consistently having problems following your logic - it's not them. 

No! I am NOT saying that....

How did you guys do on the reading comp portion of the LSAT? I'm guessing not too well. I am being severely misquoted here.



You guys don't get it. And I am not going to explain it. 

You missed the entire point of my post. What I was saying was that...

nerfco

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Re: How do I get out of ED
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2009, 05:20:30 PM »
Changedthegame,

I'm not trying to be rude, but you constantly claim to be misunderstood or state that others are missing the point.  For someone who only has 16 total posts, the frequency of all the misunderstandings suggests that there's a real issue in your clarity and ability to express ideas.  I'm not arguing your major point or any of your points, however, I think it's important to mention that if people are consistently having problems following your logic - it's not them. 

No! I am NOT saying that....

How did you guys do on the reading comp portion of the LSAT? I'm guessing not too well. I am being severely misquoted here.



You guys don't get it. And I am not going to explain it. 

You missed the entire point of my post. What I was saying was that...

This post is great.

changethegame

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Re: How do I get out of ED
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2009, 05:53:46 PM »
Changedthegame,

I'm not trying to be rude, but you constantly claim to be misunderstood or state that others are missing the point.  For someone who only has 16 total posts, the frequency of all the misunderstandings suggests that there's a real issue in your clarity and ability to express ideas.  I'm not arguing your major point or any of your points, however, I think it's important to mention that if people are consistently having problems following your logic - it's not them.  

No! I am NOT saying that....

How did you guys do on the reading comp portion of the LSAT? I'm guessing not too well. I am being severely misquoted here.



You guys don't get it. And I am not going to explain it.  

You missed the entire point of my post. What I was saying was that...

This post is great.

If people are having trouble following my logic it's because they cannot comprehend good logic. My professors didn't have any problems with it. (wink) Besides, I have already pointed out the "flaw of 'commission'" in one of your assumptions. You all assumed, without warrant, (how is that for LSAT language?)that, by "qualifications" I was speaking of "numerical indeces" alone, and you did so because of your prevailing, and biased belief that only the people with the highest grades and LSAT scores are the most qualified....that is a flawed assumption...one the adcoms would agree that you and the others you are defending made. In other words, you assumed that one could not be "qualified" for admission to a particular school without having the typical numbers for a given school, and you also assumed that I held this same belief.

And unless you can disprove what I am saying about soft factors and the effects they have on the relative predictability/unpredictability of URM admissions at "elite" and "top" schools (which, on any other day, you would certainly agree with when opposing so-called AA), you have been soundly beaten in this argument. So do yourselves a favor and give it up. I love how people question my clarity and call my arguments "flawed" but can never pinpoint the flaw, as I have done with your arguments above.