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Author Topic: Bar pass rates per school  (Read 7941 times)

lawrookie

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Bar pass rates per school
« on: July 19, 2009, 09:32:31 PM »
Does anyone how the link the offical listing of bar pass rates for all usa lawschools?
Looking at that would help me decide which ones to look into/avoid.
If you have the link, please post it here. Thanks.

nealric

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Re: Bar pass rates per school
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2009, 10:06:50 PM »
I believe the law school admission council (www.lsac.com) has what you seek.
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lawrookie

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Re: Bar pass rates per school
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2009, 11:07:47 PM »
Thanks. I'll look into it. I guess I was just being lazy hopeing someone would give a direct link to the specific part of the site that has it listed, but I'll find it, and if so post it here in case any of my fellow newb's want to checkit. Thanks again for the link bro.  ;)


I believe the law school admission council (www.lsac.com) has what you seek.

big - fat - box

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Re: Bar pass rates per school
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2009, 06:16:55 AM »
http://officialguide.lsac.org/Search/FullSearch.aspx?location=aftergraduation&cmd=show

You can also open up the individual pages for each school in the ABA/LSAC guide to law schools.

lawrookie

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Re: Bar pass rates per school
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2009, 12:49:43 PM »
Thanks.

http://officialguide.lsac.org/Search/FullSearch.aspx?location=aftergraduation&cmd=show

You can also open up the individual pages for each school in the ABA/LSAC guide to law schools.

Matthies

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Re: Bar pass rates per school
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2009, 01:22:16 PM »
Just an FYI as someone studying for the bar right now, your school its self has little impact on whether youíll pass or not. They simply donít teach you enough in law school to pass the bar. You have to take barbri or some other prep course or self study, because what you learn in law school is not enough or the right stuff to pass the bar.

So when looking at school bar pass rates itís better to infer that the students at lower pass schools are not doing their due diligence in preparing for the exam rather than the school not preparing them to take the exam. I donít think anyone at any school could pass a bar if they took it right after graduation without any prep. You also to factor in the varying toughness of a states bar, some have like 90%+ pass rates while others have 70% or lower pass rates, some are two days long some are three days and for the most part there is not a lot of standardization on whatís tested on the essay parts of each states exam. Some test corporations, some donít, some test just state law, other test just the majority rules throughout the US.

Some test subjects that are not tested in any other states like Oil and Gas or Water law, some use the MEE that asks the same question is several states, some states write their own bar questions. The only standardized part of the exam is the one day of the MBE (multiple choice) which is given in all but 1-2 states I think. Whatís tested the second or third day is pretty much up to the states and the subjects covered and can be very different from state to state. So you pretty much have to take a bar prep or self study course particular to THAT state to pass that states bar. And for each state you want to practice in you have to pass at least the written part of that states bar. There is no universal bar exam thatís good in more than one state.

Just something to consider when looking at schools bar passage rates, the raw number really does not tell you the whole story with out aslo factoring the above stuff.
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lawrookie

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Re: Bar pass rates per school
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2009, 06:05:45 PM »
Something to think over. What factors would you say are the most important when choosing then?


Just an FYI as someone studying for the bar right now, your school its self has little impact on whether youíll pass or not. They simply donít teach you enough in law school to pass the bar. You have to take barbri or some other prep course or self study, because what you learn in law school is not enough or the right stuff to pass the bar.

So when looking at school bar pass rates itís better to infer that the students at lower pass schools are not doing their due diligence in preparing for the exam rather than the school not preparing them to take the exam. I donít think anyone at any school could pass a bar if they took it right after graduation without any prep. You also to factor in the varying toughness of a states bar, some have like 90%+ pass rates while others have 70% or lower pass rates, some are two days long some are three days and for the most part there is not a lot of standardization on whatís tested on the essay parts of each states exam. Some test corporations, some donít, some test just state law, other test just the majority rules throughout the US.

Some test subjects that are not tested in any other states like Oil and Gas or Water law, some use the MEE that asks the same question is several states, some states write their own bar questions. The only standardized part of the exam is the one day of the MBE (multiple choice) which is given in all but 1-2 states I think. Whatís tested the second or third day is pretty much up to the states and the subjects covered and can be very different from state to state. So you pretty much have to take a bar prep or self study course particular to THAT state to pass that states bar. And for each state you want to practice in you have to pass at least the written part of that states bar. There is no universal bar exam thatís good in more than one state.

Just something to consider when looking at schools bar passage rates, the raw number really does not tell you the whole story with out aslo factoring the above stuff.


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Re: Bar pass rates per school
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2009, 06:35:35 PM »
I think a big part of choosing a school is going to be personal issues. Obviously going to the highest ranked school you get into is usually a good bet. For me personally I looked at location (whether the school was in a location I was willing to work in I wanted to go to school where I planed to stay because its easiest to get jobs when your local if youíre not going to a national school), the size of the legal market of the city the school was in (I wanted a decent sized legal market so I could network and intern w/o moving but not a huge market that was saturated with lawyers and lots of other law schools).

Some other factors I considered were specialty programs because I knew what I wanted to practice (and that never changed during law school), the networking opportunities available to me like bar associations and Inns of court and the rest (so I did not have to rely only on OCI to find a job), how I felt about the school during my visits, and the cost of housing because I was selling my house and needed a replacement.

For me it can down to four schools/locations: Seattle, Indianapolis, Denver, and Houston. Indy was never a serious contention because I wanted to live out west, so I threw that one out. I preferred the southwest over Washington state so I got rid of Seattle. It was down to Houston or Denver and I ended up choosing Denver because it was it most closely fit all my criteria and was closest to my family in Phoenix.

So when picking a school make a list of things that are important to you, pros and cons, and then make your decision based on a number of things not just one factor. The rankings for these schools did not really matter to me because there is not much difference between 100-60, and no difference when you plan to stay in the same city you go to school in. If I wanted to work in Denver it would have been stupid for me to pick any of the other schools, and if I wanted to work in their city it would have been stupid for me to pick Denver.
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big - fat - box

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Re: Bar pass rates per school
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2009, 06:40:48 PM »
I would actually be very cautious about attending a school that has a bar passage rate significantly below the state average. If the bar passage rate is really bad, it can severely affect the school's reputation in the local region where the school is located.

Also, schools with low bar pass rates usually have a host of other problems, such as high forced attrition and very harsh grading curves. If you are looking at schools that have awful bar pass rates, my advice would be to retake the lsat and reapply.

And while I agree no one is going to be able to pass the bar without taking a good bar prep course, there are very real things schools can do to raise their bar passage rates significantly. One school was able to go from a sub 70% bar passage rate to an over 90% bar passage rate in the span of 10 years. There are actually schools that have done this successfully and it wasn't only due to flunking out a chunk of those in the bottom of the 1L class or tightening up admissions standards. Some schools have actually changed their approach to teaching and the way exams are given in order to increase bar passage rates.

BUT one of the reasons some schools have such low bar passage rates is that a good chunk of their students cannot afford to take a good bar prep course. Or if they can afford a course, they cannot put in the required study time while working 40+ hours a week in order to pay bills and living expenses. Don't get me wrong, there are some students who can pass first try if they do bar exam study while working full time. I'm convinced that most students do not fall into this category, however.

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Re: Bar pass rates per school
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2009, 06:48:28 PM »
Actually, I'd argue that the rankings have very little utility beyond the top 25 or so schools. After that it's all about the school's regional reputation or the rep in the state you want to practice in. Choosing a school just because it's ranked #45 over a school ranked #65 or #85 is usually a bad idea. You have to look at cost and regional reputation. There are many schools in the #40-70 range that are in oversaturated markets with too many law schools and these schools are actually bottomfeeders or near bottomfeeders in their own market. You'd be better off going to a lower ranked state school that is the best or one of the top 2 schools in it's state over many of these private schools in oversaturated markets.

One more thing: do not pick a school based on salary stats. Those stats in US News have all been cooked and are significantly off the mark compared to what the average freshly minted attorney is going to make in just about any city in this country.