1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS

[sonofapickle]

Are you stupid? Most students in law school do not have a series 7 license, which means they are licensed to be a broker-dealer, and know the securities industry. Most students do not have an uncle who is a successful lawyer who attended a top 5, and a mentor who also a damn good lawyer, most people have not been in the legal world (I mean within it, from courts to talking with mentors and being taught on various legal practices) while in their teens, and most people in law school do not fluently speak German, English, and have near fluency (dialects are different in certain countries) in Spanish. Most students haven't studied business in Germany and Spain, most students do not triple major.

I have checked the stats and can say for sure, most students have not made accomplishments like I have and being only 19, that is significant. Not only that, most students have not finished prerequisites for Medical School and had near a 4.0 through undergrad. You say that is not special, but from a standpoint of me being so young, and having finished in the top 2 in all of my high school, and taking AP classes, and a PSEO student since the 9th grade, I can say for sure most people in law school have not made such accomplishments. How the hell do you figure why I am finishing college so early? I have been in college since the 9th grade but also wanted a High School career, so PSEO was the best option for me.

As for that thread? Lol, you are stupid. Most people in that thread did not drop more than 10 points. The average did not drop more than 4.5 points. You only had the fluctuating scores from what I viewed. That does not say much and is not to contest what I have been stating. If you check some other threads, and even obst can vouch for me, that I did state, "my score will drop but not dramatically." You don't get that because you are too stupid to even understand simple logic. If I consecutively score in the high 170's each time I take the test, then my score will not be below 168. The high 170's being 176 and so on.

Also, you have to factor in how those people were studying... One guy mentioned he took breaks between taking the test, well of course if you do that, you will be re-energized as your brain had time to recuperate. All in all, you fail to understand that those people applied different practice methods and their actual scores reflected that. One person commented that his practice tests, which were in the high 70's, did not drop from his actual test. He obviously studied the way he should have and not opted to take frequent breaks. I applaud your effort though, bigs, I very much do, but like obst, you will be schooled.

[bigs5068]

Well I know Mandarin and English lived and worked in China, was a professional basketball player, got 4 letters of recommendation from lawyers that actually PAID me to work them and I accomplished all that at 25. I saw numerous trials from beginning to end working and I was PAID to be there and it was not merely a  courtesy and all that got me into what you consider HORRENDOUS ATROCIOUS School according to your standards so what do you think the people at Harvard did?

You keep mentioning your uncle being a lawyer that has nothing to with you, whatever your family did and does means jack it is completley irrelevant to you and yes a lot of people even at my measly tier 4 according to you have series 7 licenses and long successful careers before going to law school. 

You are clearly 19 and have no idea what you are talking about and as usual you are talking out of your a##, because you have not done anything that relates at all to law school.

 

[sonofapickle]

I know for a fact some students at Harvard did nothing close to what I have done and merely got good grades and a great score on the LSAT. They still got in with just that. I am doing the things I have listed because I have many interests and wish to apply them all to the law. It also differentiates me from other students. I couldn't care less about what you have accomplished.

[bigs5068]

Exactly my point you don't care what I accomplished and I don't care what you accomplished. Just like nobody in law school will care what you accomplished, that was my point. 

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[Denny Shore]

Since these attrition rates likely include transfers, I don't get the issue. 
Some people aren't meant for law school, yet they still want to give it a try.  Why not let them?  It's their money and limiting access to an education only makes it harder for people who are smart enough but maybe didn't work hard enough in undergrad.  If a student goes to, as an example, Cooley because that's the only school that will take them, then after 1L transfers to a much better school, didn't Cooley do their job?  That guy would be counted in the attrition rates...
All I'm saying is that it isn't always a bad thing to "dumb tax" certain things.  We teach our kids that they can do anything they want to if they apply themselves, so we shouldn't be lying to them on account of some attrition rates that don't necessarily reflect academic dismissals only.

[bigs5068]

There should be some regulation, but if someone graduates from college with around a 3.0, scores a 150 or so on the LSAT, can write a coherent personal statement, and get a few letters of recommendation then they should have a chance at law school. Honestly, the system is not to bad as it currently is, but LSAC listing attrition rates without indicating that a number of the attrition is based on transfers seems wrong to me.  I don't know if any ABA school has more than 20% academic attrition and if a school does then there is a problem. However, at almost every school including tier 4's it seems to be around 10% attrition for academic reasons. Honestly, after going through the first year at a tier 4 the majority of people that failed out truly did not put in sufficient work. They had the ability to do well, but the ones I know failed out did not seem to put an adequate effort in. I am sure there are some exceptions to that, but most of the academic dismissals just did not put the work in plain and simple. If you want to be a lawyer then you need to be able to get down to business and focus a little bit. It is not rocket science and it can be done, but it takes time and effort to succeed in law school.

[Denny Shore]

There should be some regulation, but if someone graduates from college with around a 3.0, scores a 150 or so on the LSAT, can write a coherent personal statement, and get a few letters of recommendation then they should have a chance at law school. Honestly, the system is not to bad as it currently is, but LSAC listing attrition rates without indicating that a number of the attrition is based on transfers seems wrong to me.  I don't know if any ABA school has more than 20% academic attrition and if a school does then there is a problem. However, at almost every school including tier 4's it seems to be around 10% attrition for academic reasons. Honestly, after going through the first year at a tier 4 the majority of people that failed out truly did not put in sufficient work. They had the ability to do well, but the ones I know failed out did not seem to put an adequate effort in. I am sure there are some exceptions to that, but most of the academic dismissals just did not put the work in plain and simple. If you want to be a lawyer then you need to be able to get down to business and focus a little bit. It is not rocket science and it can be done, but it takes time and effort to succeed in law school.

A great point.  I was academically dismissed after one semester, but it was do to being willfully untreated for my ADHD.  When I left, I went to my doctor and, after trying several different medications, got on treatment that is extremely effective.  I was readmitted and did very well.  2L starts Monday.
Most of the students who were academically dismissed fell into that situation because they treated law school like college, tried to cram, blew off classes, didn't participate in classes, or thought they were smarter than everyone else.  At least one student talked a great game - how smart he was, how he was on the dean's list in college, how he understood everything....  It was the same guy who would find our little study group during finals prep to ask us questions that made us all slap our foreheads (i.e. - What is consideration in a K between A and B when A offers to sell his car to B for $5000? and What's the difference between a unilateral contract and a bilateral contract).  He was also infamous for raising his hand to provide his insight on a case, only to make a fool of himself by summarizing for the class what everyone else had said and sitting next to smart students, reading off of their laptops, asking them a question, then raising his hand to give the professor an answer.  Guys like him don't belong and, as a result, he was dismissed.
The problem with reading a generalized attrition number and then drawing a conclusion is that it doesn't take into account the number of transfers out.  As we all know, students usually transfer out of schools because they were accepted to a better school.  This is not indicative of a problem with the lower ranked school.  If anything, it speaks to the quality of their education (under the theory that if their program was terrible, there would be no way a higher ranked school would accept a transfer student, no matter how good the transcript read).
The John Marshall Law School in Chicago academically dismisses more students every year than every other law school in Illinois combined.  1/5th of all of the sitting judges in Illinois attended JMLS.  Those two facts seem to be contradictory, yet are illustrative of the fact that despite its reduced applicant requirements and reprehensible grading curve policy, they still provide a decent education.
We appear, in this country, to be outpacing demand for attorneys.  However, it may be informative to understand that a good portion of graduating JD's will never practice law.  Another chunk will practice law, but never be successful.  Many, however, will find their niche and fill a need.  My personal theory is that if you want to graduate fewer JD's, the key isn't to limit access to law schools or limit the number of law schools.  Instead, we need fewer stupid people.  Since my observation is that there are more and more morons doing stupid things, the need for lawyers continues to grow.  We haven't hit critical mass yet and we are nowhere near the tipping point, so I don't worry that future attorneys won't be able to find work.  It may take some time, but lawyers are still in demand.

[nocreeper]

hey everyone I am starting a website to help the academically dismissed.  I have an email for it - LawShoolDissmissalRecovery@yahoo.com
I am not making money I just want to see people not have to go through what I did.  Plus, these schools almost seem to enjoy doing it AND they cheapen the profession.  and the ABA....  no more law schools, in fact I am in favor of shrinking the ones with the higest attrition and most negative environments, if not shutting them down...

Anyways I will stop being negative (although honest)

I would lvoe input from people that were dismissed and readmitted, dismissed and moved on, or those who were dismissed adn in the process of restating or petitioning to be put back into their school.

Best of Luck to everyone

-LS Buddy

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