1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS

[jollyrog]

Thanks for agreeing with me.

 I think the real cesspool is US News Rankings. Realistically, how do they determine between the 73rd and 104th ranked school?  USF for example was a T-3 last year and then all the sudden became 82 or something. What in gods name did they do to jump 30 spots in one year?  The year before being dropped to T-3 they were somewhere between 70 and 90, but appaernlty they did something so attoricous that it dropped them 30 spots.  What in gods named changed there so drastically between those two years to drop 30 stops and then come back immediatly? Bottom line is ABA means ABA and granted everyone will agree on the top schools Harvard, Yale, Standford etc. However, can you really distinguish between Mercer and Williamette does an employer really care that Williamette was ranked numer 113 while Mercer was 92 that is just stupid.  I don't even know what the rankings of either school are honestly and I don't think it matters.  Do you really think an employer is going to interview someone from Mercer and then Williamette and then open the U.S. News magazine and decide who to hire based on obscure rankings that distinguish between 70 and 102.  The reality is I am sure money is changing hands between schools and U.S. News and that is how you get your ranking boosted, which is a ridicluous and would be the defintion of a cesspool organization to me. The ABA specifically mentions on their website not to take the rankings seriously and I will trust what they say as opposed to some private magazine company, who is likely getting some type of compensation for putting people where they do.

The only way U.S News rankings would even make sense is if they went the NCAA route and ranked the top 25 schools, because then it would be an honor as imposed to an insult to lower schools. I think anyone will agree that determining between 88 and 109 does not make sense and does not matter.

My biggest beefs with the rankings are that so much is subjective, and with Lexis and Westlaw, does the size of your library really matter that much?

As far as employers, exactly; 20 places in the rankings won't mean a thing. But, one lawyer I've known for about 20 years told me that if you go to a really low-ranked school, employers will assume that was the best you could get into. If that's the case, well, you do what you can. But we all know that all things being fairly equal, go to the best school you can. Would I go another $80K in debt than I will anyway to go to GULC? Hell, yes.

But then again, since I'm a Non-trad, I'm not a biglaw candidate, anyway, so T3 or T4 will probably work out.

[legalized]

It is law school discussion I am not spending hours on my punctuation. I have a job for summer paying me pretty well, which is what I wanted after my first year of law school and I did it going to a T-4.  All half the people do on here is criticize lower ranked schools when they go to what the 83rd best school in U.S. news instead of the 114th really get over yourselves. Law school will work out if you put in the work and don't waste your time on law school discussion trashing other schools.  I am not trying to argue that I will have the same opportunities as a Harvard Grad, but T-4's are not cesspools there are smart people there and the professors went to Harvard or Yale and no matter what school you go to the rules and law are the same.  A tort is a tort whether you go to Harvard or Cooley.  Waste your time criticizing the punctuation of my two second rant if you want.   

I am just writing on this board to let people know the horrible things they hear about T-4's are not true. I almost made the worst mistake of my life by believing that people on this board said about T-4's being cesspools and going to a higher ranked school in a place that I had no desire to live. Had I done that it would have screwed up my family and relationship. Instead I went to a T-4 and my family, relationship, and educational career are going fine. THE END

You make some good points. 
But statistically, if you are going to go to school outside the top 14 or 20 or whatever, your best chance for flexibility (or landing a job at all) is to go to the most well respected law school in the geographical area you want to work in.

Half of the students at T4s graduate in the bottom half of their class (groundbreaking idea right?)
If you don't have a full scholarship or a job lined up, then it would be better to avoid law school altogether than graduate in the bottom half of a T4.

This is it for me basically. End of the day if I don't get a full scholarship somewhere, (or close to it if it's a school with great employment prospects ITE), I will go ahead and say to goodbye to lawyer dreams and get on the healthcare wagon.  I WANT to become a practicing lawyer, but I do not like being broke and in debt for dumb reasons, and I already have loans to repay from undergrad so I damn sure won't be racking up any loans for anything other than living expenses for further education. 

With or without the lawyer status I intend to get certified in something in healthcare anyway because it's always good to treat your skill set as an investment.  Just like the stock market, one should be invested in things that do well in an up economy AND invested in things that do well in a down economy...diversified!

[bigs5068]

Honestly in the health care education you think you will not rack up debt either? I don't know the numbers of what you are trying to do, but in Health care or any other certification it is expensive. Law School is up there price wise as is an M.D. or nursing maybe you are trying to do something other than that I am not a medical expert, but education is expensive and a risk no matter what type of certificaiton you get.

 Also there are elite schools in every profession and Harvard Grads and Ivy league students are going to have a benefit over you in the health care industry or the legal world. Harvard and Yale have more than just law school and they hand out degrees in everything.

You have already said you racked up debt in undergrad and I imagine it is difficult to find a job with a bachleor's and it will be difficult with a J.D., M.D., Clincial Psychology whatever you have, because people don't hand out jobs.  Education you are paying to be there and in the real world they are paying you so it is a lot more stringent just something to consider.

If you want to be in the healthcare field by all means go for maybe it will work out better than the law, but I don't think any field has a guaranteed money or job prospects. 

[cooleylawstudent]

70% pass rate even if the "worst" lawschools, hell that means you show up, you breath, you pass.

Hell, how many other trades can claim the same?

[legalized]

Honestly in the health care education you think you will not rack up debt either? I don't know the numbers of what you are trying to do, but in Health care or any other certification it is expensive. Law School is up there price wise as is an M.D. or nursing maybe you are trying to do something other than that I am not a medical expert, but education is expensive and a risk no matter what type of certificaiton you get.

 Also there are elite schools in every profession and Harvard Grads and Ivy league students are going to have a benefit over you in the health care industry or the legal world. Harvard and Yale have more than just law school and they hand out degrees in everything.

You have already said you racked up debt in undergrad and I imagine it is difficult to find a job with a bachleor's and it will be difficult with a J.D., M.D., Clincial Psychology whatever you have, because people don't hand out jobs.  Education you are paying to be there and in the real world they are paying you so it is a lot more stringent just something to consider.

If you want to be in the healthcare field by all means go for maybe it will work out better than the law, but I don't think any field has a guaranteed money or job prospects.

No I don't want to be in the healthcare field or I'd be in it.  I believe in diversifying my basket of talents because if education is an investment, it makes sense to treat it to the same commonsense investment rules I learned in my business undergrad.

And the problem with people is they can't humble themselves when covering their economic bases.  I WANT to be a lawyer, and I see the SENSE in having a CERTIFICATION (not a whole degree program) in a field that is fast growing and facing a shortage.

You seem to think I am talking about getting a JD and an MD or nursing degree as well.  No sir I meant something as simple as the JD and a CNA certification.  CNA takes a month if you have a few hundred bucks or a government program sponsorship for the course, includes what is basically an apprenticeship, and is in demand, I can see for myself even outside the hospital people want someone with basic certifications to help care for their old relatives at home or what have you.

In this day and age putting all your eggs in one basket is not smart, but neither is wasting the one and limited life you have to live pursuing every hot degree under the sun.

Someone else might want to hedge their bets with a JD and a computer tech or other certification, or have success as a blogger or SOMETHING else outside the field of law.  It doesn't change their desire to be a lawyer but it can often mean the difference between always having a quick stable way to earn some money and being one of these JDs who have NO game plan for a long-haul job search.  If you are busy looking for work as a lawyer you still have to eat, and can't use the JD to do so until you get the job that requires one.  But if you have a certification in something else it can provide a source of income from another field.

People, everybody better have a side hustle these days, aka diversified investments of their time and talents, because as we can see, ITE not even partners are safe from the axe, and not everyone is like me and will research solo practice ahead of time to actually be able to do it as a viable alternative...and if you haven't passed the bar yet you can't do that and still need to eat.

You are rushing to defend and I am not even attacking, I am simply saying people who want to diversify to keep their pockets safe are well advised to do so, savvy investors do it every day.  People who can't decide between two twin time drains as all-consuming ways of making money though, don't really know what they want and need to do more specific self-evaluation to see what it is they really want to do.  There is a difference.

And, you need to stop getting militant on every post and jumping to shoot down every other option as having the same risks and rewards as law.  You are over-generalizing.  Healthcare has different risks and rewards, and more to the point, different BARRIERS TO ENTRY and SKILL SET requirements.  Not everybody has the patience or humbleness or work ethic to clean some old person's sh*t or whatever to make ends meet, so they can't jump up and make the same decisions as me to keep life rolling while I pursue my dreams.

My undergrad degree can also help me get a job, but not as fast as a CNA can find one because it doesn't take multiple interviews over a few months to get a simple job, and quite frankly, everybody these days thinks they are too good to do some manual labor or get their hands dirty.  I don't particularly relish the thought either, but I have more at stake than just my own wants, and know how to make some sacrifices for the greater good.  Plus, I am not a fan of being broke, and some people, a lot actually, apparently rather be broke than either re-evaluate or increase their options. If what you are doing or what you already have isn't working, don't keep doing it or relying on it, try something new.  And if the skill set or experience level you have is not one employers in the current market are willing to pay for...either decrease your pay expectations, change or increase your skill set, or both.  Or if it's an option move to where what you bring to the table already is valued enough for you to actually live off it. 

[legalized]

Honestly in the health care education you think you will not rack up debt either? I don't know the numbers of what you are trying to do, but in Health care or any other certification it is expensive. Law School is up there price wise as is an M.D. or nursing maybe you are trying to do something other than that I am not a medical expert, but education is expensive and a risk no matter what type of certificaiton you get.

 Also there are elite schools in every profession and Harvard Grads and Ivy league students are going to have a benefit over you in the health care industry or the legal world. Harvard and Yale have more than just law school and they hand out degrees in everything.

You have already said you racked up debt in undergrad and I imagine it is difficult to find a job with a bachleor's and it will be difficult with a J.D., M.D., Clincial Psychology whatever you have, because people don't hand out jobs.  Education you are paying to be there and in the real world they are paying you so it is a lot more stringent just something to consider.

If you want to be in the healthcare field by all means go for maybe it will work out better than the law, but I don't think any field has a guaranteed money or job prospects.

Oh and my previous response was based on the last paragraph in my post before that.

Far as saying goodbye to the law if my plans cannot happen without significant debt at a non-T-10 (or T-5) law school...you cannot judge my decisions on debt without knowing my life.  If you feel it's worth it to pay full price for a low-prestige school, do it and be happy.  I cannot afford 30,000 a year ANYWHERE. Period.  I will do nursing if I can't go to law school.  And it will not be what i first wanted to do, but there are places paying for people to go to nursing school, not a scholarship but a payment to anyone who gets accepted.  And nursing school even on full out loans costs a hell of a lot less then a JD 9 times out of ten, so what are you talking about "it's just as expensive"? 

You are not researching you are just speaking in defense of your personal decisions in every thread where these things come up, and that's fine, you bring up good points to consider, but for my personal purposes if I don't get a significant scholarship to somewhere I can actually attend given MY life, I WILL NOT BE GOING.  Maybe if more folks made the hard decisions there would not be such a glut of daydreamers bawling on the internet now.

I have no problem attending ANY tier of school.  Just not at full price.  I have decent PT scores, excellent writing, research, and analytical skills, and know exactly what I want to do with my law degree.  I also know my situation and am not about to think what worked for you will work for me.  I am not one of those people that thinks a non-T-14 is a waste of time, but ANY school that costs me more than half the maximum the federal government will give me each year is not worth it for me.  FOR ME.

[cooleylawstudent]

Mabey it feels "militant" to you because it's right.

[cooleylawstudent]

To the OP who mentioned other career options, they tend to have MUCH,MUCH, WORSE outlooks, even in a good economy.

Both total salary wise and odds of getting fulltime permenant work.

The ones requiring gradschool tend to cost about the same as well.

Don't like it, join the picket line outside a GM plant, or work as a boathand near the BP oil spill.......MUCH better there. 

[the white rabbit]

Mabey it feels "militant" to you because it's right.

I think it's more likely because bigs always writes like he's shouting.

[cooleylawstudent]

mabey dumb people piss him off.