1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS

[bigs5068]

Well going to a T-4 I will tell you the curve does not force anybody out. Golden Gate allows for up to 90% of the class to get an A or B and only 10% are required to get a C and there is no mandatory D's at all. GGU's bar passage rate was 77% compared to UC Hastings 80% and they are ranked number 38 or something like that in U.S..  Tier 4's are not cesspools like the ignorant idiots on this board who have no experience with them say they are.  There are people there that don't put in the work and fail out, but if you get through you get through it. Consideration in a contract is the same whether you learned it Harvard or Cooley, we are learning the same things.  Obviously, someone at Harvard will have more opportunities,but location has something do with it also. I can say confidently that I will have a better shot at getting a job in San Francisco than a guy going to Florida State will. There are numerous alumni of GGU in the bay area and T-4's place will in the location they are in.  I probably won't be living a jet-setting lifestyle upon graduation, but I have already found a good summer job I am happy with and hopefully it will work out and turn it to something permanent. The attorney's there are not millionares and I never expected that lifestyle from going to a T-4. However, I find the law interesting and have always wanted to be a lawyer and so I am in law school. Stop bashing T-4's when you no nothing about them.

[jollyrog]

Well going to a T-4 I will tell you the curve does not force anybody out. Golden Gate allows for up to 90% of the class to get an A or B and only 10% are required to get a C and there is no mandatory D's at all. GGU's bar passage rate was 77% compared to UC Hastings 80% and they are ranked number 38 or something like that in U.S..  Tier 4's are not cesspools like the ignorant idiots on this board who have no experience with them say they are.  There are people there that don't put in the work and fail out, but if you get through you get through it. Consideration in a contract is the same whether you learned it Harvard or Cooley, we are learning the same things.  Obviously, someone at Harvard will have more opportunities,but location has something do with it also. I can say confidently that I will have a better shot at getting a job in San Francisco than a guy going to Florida State will. There are numerous alumni of GGU in the bay area and T-4's place will in the location they are in.  I probably won't be living a jet-setting lifestyle upon graduation, but I have already found a good summer job I am happy with and hopefully it will work out and turn it to something permanent. The attorney's there are not millionares and I never expected that lifestyle from going to a T-4. However, I find the law interesting and have always wanted to be a lawyer and so I am in law school. Stop bashing T-4's when you no nothing about them.

Call me crazy, but I think spelling, punctuation, and correct homonym usage might separate T4 students from Harvard's, as well.

[cooleylawstudent]

Prick, they dont grade on spelling at the bar. It ain't the third grade.

[bigs5068]

It is law school discussion I am not spending hours on my punctuation. I have a job for summer paying me pretty well, which is what I wanted after my first year of law school and I did it going to a T-4.  All half the people do on here is criticize lower ranked schools when they go to what the 83rd best school in U.S. news instead of the 114th really get over yourselves. Law school will work out if you put in the work and don't waste your time on law school discussion trashing other schools.  I am not trying to argue that I will have the same opportunities as a Harvard Grad, but T-4's are not cesspools there are smart people there and the professors went to Harvard or Yale and no matter what school you go to the rules and law are the same.  A tort is a tort whether you go to Harvard or Cooley.  Waste your time criticizing the punctuation of my two second rant if you want.   

I am just writing on this board to let people know the horrible things they hear about T-4's are not true. I almost made the worst mistake of my life by believing that people on this board said about T-4's being cesspools and going to a higher ranked school in a place that I had no desire to live. Had I done that it would have screwed up my family and relationship. Instead I went to a T-4 and my family, relationship, and educational career are going fine. THE END

[TheCause]

It is law school discussion I am not spending hours on my punctuation. I have a job for summer paying me pretty well, which is what I wanted after my first year of law school and I did it going to a T-4.  All half the people do on here is criticize lower ranked schools when they go to what the 83rd best school in U.S. news instead of the 114th really get over yourselves. Law school will work out if you put in the work and don't waste your time on law school discussion trashing other schools.  I am not trying to argue that I will have the same opportunities as a Harvard Grad, but T-4's are not cesspools there are smart people there and the professors went to Harvard or Yale and no matter what school you go to the rules and law are the same.  A tort is a tort whether you go to Harvard or Cooley.  Waste your time criticizing the punctuation of my two second rant if you want.   

I am just writing on this board to let people know the horrible things they hear about T-4's are not true. I almost made the worst mistake of my life by believing that people on this board said about T-4's being cesspools and going to a higher ranked school in a place that I had no desire to live. Had I done that it would have screwed up my family and relationship. Instead I went to a T-4 and my family, relationship, and educational career are going fine. THE END

You make some good points. 
But statistically, if you are going to go to school outside the top 14 or 20 or whatever, your best chance for flexibility (or landing a job at all) is to go to the most well respected law school in the geographical area you want to work in.

Half of the students at T4s graduate in the bottom half of their class (groundbreaking idea right?)
If you don't have a full scholarship or a job lined up, then it would be better to avoid law school altogether than graduate in the bottom half of a T4.

[bigs5068]

I agree with you had I gotten into Santa Clara or USF that is where I would be. Golden Gate was the bay area school I got into and the Bay area is where I want to live and I want to be a lawyer so put all that together and that is where I ended up. Obviosly, the better you do and higher ranked the school the more options you will have. I just feel like people on this site talk about T-4's like they are evil institutions meant to deceive and steal everybody's money. Not everybody is smart enough to get into Harvard in high school a kid had a 3.2 and 1140 on his SAT should still go to college if he wants. Just because he doesn't get into UCLA and has to go to a smaller state school does not mean he isn't going to learn anything and I think that person should go to college.

Same argument for law school, however more money is on the line and it is 3 more years of your life. So you should certainly be aware of that no matter what school you go to. Before law school I worked as a paralegal for two years and enjoyed it and decided to take the LSAT and got a 155, which is not jaw droppiong, but was good enough to get me into law school.


All these horror stories people tell about T-4's apply anywhere. There is a worst student at Harvard, Standford, etc. I have a really good friend who just graduated from Hastings, she was in the bottom 75% and didn't pass the bar and is having trouble. Am I going to sit here and say Hastings is a terrible school, because one person had a bad experience. No that woudl be retarded, everybody from each and every school will have success and horror stories, law school is what you make of it, that is all what I am trying to convey to people consideirng law school

[jollyrog]

Prick, they dont grade on spelling at the bar. It ain't the third grade.

Who said anything about the bar? Granted, this is only an internet forum, but failing to catch words obviously left out, wrong word form usage, not to mention the spelling and punctuation, still tend to indicate how well one writes.

All I'm saying is that it's one pretty large factor that separates the T14 types from the rest of us.

Try using your rationale in LRW and see how that works out for you.

I'm going to a T3 or T4 myself, for cripes' sakes, but I know it's not Harvard.

[bigs5068]

Sorry my punctuation offends you so much I come on this website when I am on the train to and from school to kill time and I'm using my I-phone so my grammars not great. I was in the top 10% of my class and did fine in LRW thanks for the advice though. 

I completely agree that someone at a T-14 school is a better student and standardized test taker than you or me and that is why they are there. One of my best friends goes to Standford and he is brilliant and will more than likely be a better attorney than I will ever be. So I think we agree T-14 students are smarter than us. My whole point is that I don't think my T-4 is a cesspool and I imagine you don't feel your school is either.U

The reason I brought up the bar is that not everybody passes no matter what school they go to. Harvard does not have a 100% bar passage rate so someone there didn't pass and is probably having a hard time finding a job and is pissed off. So is Harvard a shady school bent on stealing everybody's money? I don't think so. My whole point was that you should go to the law school that works best for you and do not take posts titled 1L attrirtion rates Beg the ABA to do away with All these Cesspools seriously, because the OP themselves probably has not yet taken the bar or done anything significant in the legal world and therefore has no right to criticize other schools.

As a sidenote the reason for the high attrition rates at these schools is transfers they didn't fail out 25% of the class. 15% of last years 1L's at GGU transferred to Hastings, USF, Santa Clara or some other school at the end of the first year and they were not kicked out as the attrition rate percentages make you believe. The other 10% include people that quit law school and those who didn't put in the work.

[jollyrog]

Sorry my punctuation offends you so much I come on this website when I am on the train to and from school to kill time and I'm using my I-phone so my grammars not great. I was in the top 10% of my class and did fine in LRW thanks for the advice though.  

I completely agree that someone at a T-14 school is a better student and standardized test taker than you or me and that is why they are there. One of my best friends goes to Standford and he is brilliant and will more than likely be a better attorney than I will ever be. So I think we agree T-14 students are smarter than us. My whole point is that I don't think my T-4 is a cesspool and I imagine you don't feel your school is either.U

The reason I brought up the bar is that not everybody passes no matter what school they go to. Harvard does not have a 100% bar passage rate so someone there didn't pass and is probably having a hard time finding a job and is pissed off. So is Harvard a shady school bent on stealing everybody's money? I don't think so. My whole point was that you should go to the law school that works best for you and do not take posts titled 1L attrirtion rates Beg the ABA to do away with All these Cesspools seriously, because the OP themselves probably has not yet taken the bar or done anything significant in the legal world and therefore has no right to criticize other schools.

As a sidenote the reason for the high attrition rates at these schools is transfers they didn't fail out 25% of the class. 15% of last years 1L's at GGU transferred to Hastings, USF, Santa Clara or some other school at the end of the first year and they were not kicked out as the attrition rate percentages make you believe. The other 10% include people that quit law school and those who didn't put in the work.

The LRW line wasn't directed at you, unless ; )- is your alter ego, and I'm not offended. The iphone explains quite a bit, but I just saw some humor in somebody defending T4 schools with a bunch of errors in the defense, nothing more. I wasn't busting your chops, but if I get called a prick, I'm going to return fire, fair enough?

IMO, so much of the USNWR rankings are self-perepetuating, that it stigmatizes SOME T3 & T4 schools. Then there are those that are truly rotten, but you're right, we agree that one can get a good legal education and have a nice career coming out of a lower-ranked school, provided you rock the place. It's no news to anybody here that graduating in the bottom 50% from GULC will put you ahead of somebody in the bottom 50% from Whittier. (Now, here come the flames from the Whittier people...)

Dude, you made a good case for T4s, and I agree with you. It just struck me as funny at the time. No harm intended. Good points here, as well.

Continued success to you.

[bigs5068]

Thanks for agreeing with me.

 I think the real cesspool is US News Rankings. Realistically, how do they determine between the 73rd and 104th ranked school?  USF for example was a T-3 last year and then all the sudden became 82 or something. What in gods name did they do to jump 30 spots in one year?  The year before being dropped to T-3 they were somewhere between 70 and 90, but appaernlty they did something so attoricous that it dropped them 30 spots.  What in gods named changed there so drastically between those two years to drop 30 stops and then come back immediatly? Bottom line is ABA means ABA and granted everyone will agree on the top schools Harvard, Yale, Standford etc. However, can you really distinguish between Mercer and Williamette does an employer really care that Williamette was ranked numer 113 while Mercer was 92 that is just stupid.  I don't even know what the rankings of either school are honestly and I don't think it matters.  Do you really think an employer is going to interview someone from Mercer and then Williamette and then open the U.S. News magazine and decide who to hire based on obscure rankings that distinguish between 70 and 102.  The reality is I am sure money is changing hands between schools and U.S. News and that is how you get your ranking boosted, which is a ridicluous and would be the defintion of a cesspool organization to me. The ABA specifically mentions on their website not to take the rankings seriously and I will trust what they say as opposed to some private magazine company, who is likely getting some type of compensation for putting people where they do.

The only way U.S News rankings would even make sense is if they went the NCAA route and ranked the top 25 schools, because then it would be an honor as imposed to an insult to lower schools. I think anyone will agree that determining between 88 and 109 does not make sense and does not matter.