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Author Topic: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS  (Read 30042 times)

Matlock!!!!

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Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2009, 01:31:06 PM »
Yes schools publish job stats, schools also publish stats on thier law reviews and clubs, that does not mean they are garntunteeing you a spot on one. Studnets need to realize, and take resposeblity for the fact a school is a school and nothing more.
Well, when they graduate with over $150,000 in debt and NO way of paying it back, they'll realize. 

I realize the ABA isn't going to do anything.  I believe they lost a lawsuit a few years ago and now schools can't seem to create enough new law schools.  We'll see in the next 10 years if schools end up pricing themselves out of existence.  If things are truly as bad as ATL and the ABA Journal indicate.... things are only going to get worse.
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Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2009, 08:53:17 PM »
If the ABA introduces the rule about a school's bar passage rate having to be within 10% of the state's average in 3 of the last 5 years, most of these places will take care of themselves.
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Papa Bear

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Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2009, 10:01:36 PM »
"Many that [are accredited] deserve [not to be]. And some [are not accredited] that deserve [to be.]  Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out [rescission] in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends."
"Facts have a well-known liberal bias."

jollyrog

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Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2009, 09:40:19 PM »
I do think peoplpe should be sure they know what they are getting into before starting at these schools.

In 1993, when all I had going for me was my train wreck undergrad GPA (I mean, like 1.abominable ...) and my 165 LSAT, Nova Southeastern was playing a game where instead of waitlisting, they'd "conditionally" accept applicants provided they earned a B average in two summer courses. I asked the advisor at Stetson about this, and she told me, "It's a money maker for them. They probably have an attrition rate of nearly 60%", but since they weren't actually admitted students, it didn't show up in the reporting.

Realizing that, even though I was confident in my ability to get the grades, I politely declined on principle.

nealric

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Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2009, 10:55:38 PM »
Quote
I think you missed my point, my point is not what these schools curve to, but that most schools curve to the point that you can't really fail out unless you TRY.

Yep, sorry- I misread your post. I think the problem is that some schools who are either marginally accredited or vying for accreditation desperately need to get their bar pass rates up. Failing people out is the easy way out- even if some of those fail-outs would have passed the bar and made great lawyers.
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jtgain

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Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2009, 12:59:19 PM »
As I said in the other thread, Nova Southeastern has eliminated all full tuition scholarships.  To me, that says nothing except, "We don't care about attracting quality students; we are concerned about money only!"

big - fat - box

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Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2009, 06:32:54 PM »
A lot of these schools would up their bar passage rates and reputation if they simply stopped admitting student who were likely to fail the bar and overhauled their curriculum.

The reason these schools don't do that is b/c the rely on the high priced tuition to keep the school running and pay prof. salaries and such. A lot of these schools wouldn't be able to run themselves if they simply reduced incoming class sizes by half or more. I agree that they are essentially ripping off a lot of students.

Same thing with gpa string scholarships, bogus salary/employment stats, etc.

As far as the top 100 school thing, there are some terrible schools in the top 100 also. What I mean specifically are private tier 2 schools in overcrowed markets. I'd shut down some of the private schools ranked in the top 100 before some of the state schools in tier 3/4.

legalized

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Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2009, 01:09:40 PM »
From Paul L. Caron, TaxProf Blog:

LawSchoolNumbers.com ranks the 195 law schools by 1L attrition rates.  (The ABA Section on Legal Education publishes aggregate attrition rates, and each school's attrition rate is available on its official ABA data sheet.)  Here are the 25 law schools with the highest attrition rates according to LawSchoolNumbers.com, along with the school's 2009 U.S. News overall ranking:

   1. Whittier (51.5% 1L attrition, #161 in U.S. News)
   2. Touro (37.4%, #171)
   3. Golden Gate (36.9%, #174)
   4. Western State (32.6%, not ranked)
   5. Jones School of Law (32.3%, not ranked)
   6. Widener (30.5%, #179)
   7. St. Thomas University (28.5%, #174)
   8. Barry (27.6%, #181)
   9. Liberty (27.1%, not ranked)
  10. Thomas M Cooley (26.0%, #181)
  11. Florida Coastal (23.7%, #171)
  12. California Western (23.6%, #156)
  13. Valparaiso (23.4%, #143)
  14. Florida International (23.3%, #153)
  15. Capital (22.8%, #161)
  16. Louisville (22.5%, #100)
  17. North Carolina Central (22.1%, #168)
  18. Detroit Mercy (21.9%, $163)
  19. Nova Southeastern (21.8%, #158)
  20. Oklahoma City (21.0%, $168)
  21. Willamette (21.0%, #137)
  22. Western New England (20.7%, #171)
  23. Northern Kentucky (20.2%, #156)
  24. University of The District of Columbia (20.0%, #181)
  25. Franklin Pierce (19.9%, #131)

With the economy and the over over abundance of law schools and graduates, how in good conscious can the ABA justify keeping these school accredited.  They are all abominations.  And Louisville.... SHAME ON YOU!

As I read somewhere else...it is actually to these schools' CREDIT that they kick people out at a higher rate than the top schools...because it proves, if youthink about it, that they ARE teaching the same law at the same quality as the upper schools...the upper schools are just more SELECTIVE and only let people in who they are MORE than reasonably sure can cut it.

These schools are not poorer in the material taught, they are poorer in SELECTIVITY.  So whereas if i am admitted to harvard i can pretty much be reinforced in the idea that i WILL graduate and pass the bar because the VAAAST majority of their admits do just that...admittance to cooley or wherever still leaves me big doubts on finishing because they routinely let people in who can't actually make it through law school and can't pass the bar.

Think about it...a less selective school, if they are teaching what harvard is teaching, SHOULD have a much higher dropout rate!

ERCLAW

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Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2009, 08:25:04 PM »
This is a problem with ABA accreditation standards. I don't know about anyone else, but when I was in college I was an idiot. I didn't take the LSAT seriously nor did I take GPA seriously. So I landed myself into a conundrum. It was a immaturity and being poor.

Anyways, after getting 5 rejections, 2 waitlists, and 1 acceptance. I decided I would take my acceptance. It was a non-aba school. It was the best choice I could have made. I got loads of attention, and was given an opportunity. I passed the bar last year in Conn/Mass. Plus I charged up half of what my friends up at Suffolk have on their tabs.

Yet, I am still discriminated against by the usual suspects. Despite the fact I have 2 bars under my belt and a JD/BA. Some of the ABA schools in Mass should not be ABA that is true. I can think of 3 off the top of my head. Right now they are lobbying to stop the first PUBLIC law school from forming out of a school that should have been accredited a long time ago. Due to political bs they got slammed in 2004. 

The ABA operates on dirty money and political clout. Period. The fact they are a private organization is also at issue I think.

TTom

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Re: 1L Attrition Rates : Beg the ABA to do away with ALL these CESSPOOLS
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2009, 05:13:42 PM »
From Paul L. Caron, TaxProf Blog:

LawSchoolNumbers.com ranks the 195 law schools by 1L attrition rates.  (The ABA Section on Legal Education publishes aggregate attrition rates, and each school's attrition rate is available on its official ABA data sheet.)  Here are the 25 law schools with the highest attrition rates according to LawSchoolNumbers.com, along with the school's 2009 U.S. News overall ranking:

   1. Whittier (51.5% 1L attrition, #161 in U.S. News)
   2. Touro (37.4%, #171)
   3. Golden Gate (36.9%, #174)
   4. Western State (32.6%, not ranked)
   5. Jones School of Law (32.3%, not ranked)
   6. Widener (30.5%, #179)
   7. St. Thomas University (28.5%, #174)
   8. Barry (27.6%, #181)
   9. Liberty (27.1%, not ranked)
  10. Thomas M Cooley (26.0%, #181)
  11. Florida Coastal (23.7%, #171)
  12. California Western (23.6%, #156)
  13. Valparaiso (23.4%, #143)
  14. Florida International (23.3%, #153)
  15. Capital (22.8%, #161)
  16. Louisville (22.5%, #100)
  17. North Carolina Central (22.1%, #168)
  18. Detroit Mercy (21.9%, $163)
  19. Nova Southeastern (21.8%, #158)
  20. Oklahoma City (21.0%, $168)
  21. Willamette (21.0%, #137)
  22. Western New England (20.7%, #171)
  23. Northern Kentucky (20.2%, #156)
  24. University of The District of Columbia (20.0%, #181)
  25. Franklin Pierce (19.9%, #131)

With the economy and the over over abundance of law schools and graduates, how in good conscious can the ABA justify keeping these school accredited.  They are all abominations.  And Louisville.... SHAME ON YOU!

There is good reason why the ABA accredits these law schools. It's simple. Any person that demonstrates mere competence should be allowed to practice law.

Law touches all of our lives. So deeply rooted is this concept that, as the maxim goes, "ignorance of the law is no excuse." The Federal Rules of Civil Procedure are built around this concept, allowing for pro se litigants to have their day in court. In short, our democracy is built upon the rule of law and the idea that all persons that demonstrate minimal competence should be allowed to participate in the very mechanism that, potentially, can take away life, liberty, and property.

For good or bad, it is the market and individual states that will regulate who practices, not the ABA. For example, bad attorneys will either not have clients and leave the profession (market forces), or will be barred (by the state bar or state supreme court) through disciplinary actions.