Grading curves and academic dismissals at Tier 4's

[barond]

Just wondering what kind of questions I should ask the school (detroit mercy) about the grading system used and on what basis a student can get dismissed. Do they give you a second chance typically?

Is there forced attrition? I've seen various numbers on there 1L attrition from 13% to 21%. Where are the true numbers at?

[Ninja1]

Ask them those exact questions. Try to get them to give you something that looks like this: http://www.law.fsu.edu/current_students/rules/grading.pdf

Best numbers for attrition: http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA1835.pdf

[barond]

I did send an email and this is what they said:

"The curve is based on 2.7-2.8.  It is not necessarily the same for every class as it depends on the size of the class and whether it is a required class or not. A student must maintain a 2.0 cumulative GPA to not be dismissed. In terms of the class of Fall 2008; approximately 9% of students were dismissed.  Though historically its anywhere between 5-12%."

Can you break this down for me Ninja1? If the curve is 2.75 is that the 'median' grade or the average. Seems like a typical grading system doesn't it?

[Ninja1]

The curve is probably going to be the median grade in the class, but it could be the average. It will probably work out about the same either way, so I wouldn't sweat that detail too much unless you have a scholarship riding on it.

Yeah, this seems like a pretty normal grading system and a B- curve seems to be common. Also the attrition rate, as far as T4s go, actually isn't too bad. You make it past the first year and it looks like you're cool, so that's good. What were your numbers like?

[barond]

My numbers weren't good.  2.6 LSDAS GPA   143, 150 lsat.  I feel I could improve my lsat another 5 to 10 points because I never figured out logic games. I just didn't want to put this off another year. Already been serious about this for 3 years.

[Ninja1]

For Detroit Mercy, that's not too bad though. You're in the range I'd expect to survive as long as you work hard.

[jtgain]

What is the straight dope on these dismissals from T4 schools?  Is it that:

1) They accept a lot of sub par students that can't handle the curriculum
2) They deliberately accept more students than they can handle to make money and then arbitrarily axe a bunch before 2L
3) Something else
?

[Matthies]

For Detroit Mercy, that's not too bad though. You're in the range I'd expect to survive as long as you work hard.

I agree with Ninja, assuming you put in the average amount of work you should be fine. A 2.75 mean/median curve is not really that bad for a t4, some are much, much worse. Also it sounds like from the e-mail you got some clases are not cruved at all, which is nice if you get into trouble first year take a bunch of uncurved seminar courses and pad your GPA. Knowing what I know now, you don't need to take "bar courses" (that tend to have harsher cruves) to be ready for the bar they teach you what you need to know in barbri. Family law one semster or one htree hour lecture, I'm glad I chose the latter.

[Ninja1]

What is the straight dope on these dismissals from T4 schools?  Is it that:

1) They accept a lot of sub par students that can't handle the curriculum
2) They deliberately accept more students than they can handle to make money and then arbitrarily axe a bunch before 2L
3) Something else
?

T4s tend to have high attrition mainly because of #1 above and their curves. Also, there is a school of thought out there that says #2 may be right.

It's no secret that some of the T4's population made it in with a GPA that most people could have earned sleeping through their classes and an LSAT that they could have guessed their way to. As such, it's not surprising if and when a good number of students on the low end have problems getting through from an academic perspective.

The curves at T4s are usually set in a way that will cause a reasonably predictable amount of the class to wash out and will keep everyone else constantly fighting to stay above water. T4s do this because they want to keep their bar passage rates looking at least somewhat decent and given the caliber of most of their students (see above), they need to cut the really poorly performing ones before they take the bar and the school takes a passage rate hit. The forced attrition should also make everyone work harder to stay above the next guy.