Law School Discussion

Nine Years of Discussion
;

Author Topic: Dumb things that we said as 0L's  (Read 8684 times)

Obama2

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 106
  • BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY, Detriot red cleaned up!!
    • View Profile
Re: Dumb things that we said as 0L's
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2009, 01:38:10 PM »
Quote from: cui bono? link=topic=4019785.msg5344737#msg5344737 date=1245669318
[/quote

LOL- no, but buy my book anyway.  LEEWS is pretty interesting and comes highly recommended by most people.  I met the creator dude in person once- he seems to genuinely care about people finding the light through the fog that is law school. The program is pretty expensive around $175 during my first year and I don’t know if it’s gone up.  Just the primer would run you about $30.  I don’t think everyone needs it. And I think it applies mostly to “issue spotter” type examinations with multiple parties in the fact pattern.  But LEEWS does give some good strategies.  It discusses how to read a case, how to think of cases in an exam focused fashion, exam tips, etc.   
But like all of these types of things, it may create a sense of false sense of security.  Just because you got your hands on it doesn’t mean that you’ll do well.  Why? (1)  Everyone else could have gotten their hands on it as well and you’re graded on a curve (2) just getting the material/supplement isn’t going to do any good if you don’t know how to use it properly. I think 1Ls kinda feel like they’re in the clear as long as they’ve picked up some type of supplement from the bookstore.  Like they’re “safe”.  As I’ve said in my book the knowledge aint gonna get in your head by osmosis!

Actually the law school discussion board  is in my book- not mentioned by name of course but there was one particular ‘incident’ that I wanted the reader to know about when it comes to online networking. ;-)


I'll buy your book if you help me write mine lol, is that a good deal? lol. Liking the osmosis anaology. On a serious tip, LEEWS sounds very interesting, I wonder why they havent mentioned it at our program yet. We have like 2 to 3 presenters come in every week and try to tell us how their programs are the best thing for law student. There are so many of them out there, I feel like they are not trying to help but just making a business  and taking advantage of naive 0L's anxiety. Im sure a small percentage of them mean well there is way too much solicitaion going on.  I am glad you pointed out"false sense of security" because I can see how we can easily use these suppliments as a shortcut and rely on them. Lets hope I wont be one of those, I wont even allow my self to open any suppiments right now for these courses I am taking lol, I figured i should get the work habit down first!

About Online networking, am I networking right now? lol And I see you gangin up on me with your peers. TSK TSK..poor 0L ME ~ tear tear~ lol
Feeling like Detriot Red cleaned up!!

cui bono?

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 4036
  • blah bliggetty blah
    • View Profile
Re: Dumb things that we said as 0L's
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2009, 02:01:47 PM »

I'll buy your book if you help me write mine lol, is that a good deal? lol. Liking the osmosis anaology. On a serious tip, LEEWS sounds very interesting, I wonder why they havent mentioned it at our program yet. We have like 2 to 3 presenters come in every week and try to tell us how their programs are the best thing for law student. There are so many of them out there, I feel like they are not trying to help but just making a business  and taking advantage of naive 0L's anxiety. Im sure a small percentage of them mean well there is way too much solicitaion going on.  I am glad you pointed on "false sense of security" because I can see how we can easily use these suppliments as a shortcut and rely on them. Lets hope I wont be one of I wont end up using work to suppliment the suppliment instead of the other day around. lol

About Online networking, am I networking right now? l And I see you gangin up on me with your peers. TSK TSK..poor 0L ME ~ tear tear~ lol

LOL, deal.   Feel free to use the osmosis analogy.  But it’s already in the book. ;-)

Yes, all of those presenters are absolutely banking on your (the generic “your”, not you specifically) 1L anxiety.  Yep all.  Even the well meaning ones.  Once my book is out, I’ll be doing the exact same thing, only responsibly.  Their advice shouldn’t be discounted but listened to but taken with a grain of salt.  See if what they’re saying makes sense.  Don’t do like a lot of 1Ls do (like I did) and blindly follow someone’s advice just because they went through it before you.  Even my advice, before you follow it, see if it makes sense to you.  Although I cosign everything A and Sands have said, see if their advice makes sense to you before you follow it.  Absolutely everything anyone and everyone says to you -at least silently question it.  Why am I saying this?  Because I blindly followed one 3L for a good portion of my first year.  Everything she said I did.  After all, she was a 3L so she did something right, right?  Wrong!  And it screwed me up royally the first semester.  You gotta at least ask yourself ‘why is this person telling me this?’.  Keep in mind that some upperclassmen are just trying to get you to join their organization or validate their own poor choices they made as a 1L.  Long story short: my pseudo-mentor  did not do well her entire law school career. She was always at the bottom of her class.  She also did not network and is now at the PD’s office.  Nothing wrong with the PD’s office but there is if you don’t want to be there.   

Re: online networking.  Yes, you are networking right now and it could translate to real life.   I once went to an event and someone that I had just met said “good to finally meet you”.   [my LSD name was initially “finally”] Didn’t get it at first until he repeated it.  Dude recognized the picture I had in my avatar. Cool guy though. 

LOL, not “ganging up”.  Dropping knowledge.


P.S on the curve comment, we just had some of writing assignment grades, graded on a curve, back and lets just say some people are not as "friendly" as they were in the beginning lol. I never seen a line form so quick behind a professor as the day we got our grades back lol

Yep, that's bound to happen. Funniest thing to see is that people form new friendships/study groups after the first semester grades come out. 
I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality...  I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word - -Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King

TruOne

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 378
  • I'm still standing. . .I'm still here!
    • View Profile
Re: Dumb things that we said as 0L's
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2009, 05:23:11 PM »
Well well, I see lets school this 0L seminar has started lol and the references such as "young grasshoper" starting to come out lol, I feel like I am a freshman on the basketball team all over again lol

Truone & Sands, I see you put my typo on blast like that lol, its all good though I see how yall upperclassmen treating a young "grasshopers" lol. But I get your point that since its only one final, everyone will catch up in regards to technical parts of the lawschool aspect. And for me to argue other wise based on what I think it will be when people who have been through it tell me other wise, will be foolish and a bit naive. But to go down swinging I was looking at from the perspective of "thinking and writing like a lawyer". I felt like it is a mind set you never master and the longer your train yourself the quicker and the better you get at it. I guess that is more of a personal development. Also I was thinking mostly everyone will be on the same level intellectual abiliites and work ethic. Therefore having any kind of advantage, even a slim one, will make the difference of getting those extra few points who sets you apart from the curve. However since you guys have actually gone through the process, I will have to accept your inputs until the time comes for me to speak from first hand experience.


P.S on the curve comment, we just had some of writing assignment grades, graded on a curve, back and lets just say some people are not as "friendly" as they were in the beginning lol. I never seen a line form so quick behind a professor as the day we got our grades back lol

You are going to see that a lot during 1st semester. It stops once grades come back and people realize that talking to the Professor right after every single class DOES NOT HELP.

As far as networking, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND doing it. Hell, networking is what helped land me at my firm right now, and it helped me get the Clerkship I'll be doing this fall after I finish this soul-draining exam. Networking can come in all types of forms, it might start off with a question and it might turn into you and that person going to the same law school or being in the same BLSA Region and meet up at a convention, you never know.

Just follow what everyone says with a grain of salt and remember that you only have to suffer thru LS for 3 years, there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
Warning: Educated Black Man

University of Law '09

Kirk Lazarus

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2042
  • I'm a lead farmer, mofo
    • View Profile
Re: Dumb things that we said as 0L's
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2009, 10:20:47 PM »
"Better to go to Harvard than a full ride at Columbia."

I just LOL when I hear that now.
YLS c/o 2009

Eugene Young

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 538
    • View Profile
Re: Dumb things that we said as 0L's
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2009, 12:00:51 AM »

Yea Expert Learning is great in my opinion. Who knew all A students weren't born a genious lol. As far as preping for the summer, I am obviously an 0L and dont have much authority to make statements like this, but when I first started everyone told me there is nothing you can do to prep for school in the summer. But now after going half way through this program, I will have to say I have to disagree. I am only half way done and I am already learning how to brief cases; spot issues; synthesize cases; learning how to utilize lexis and westlaw; writing legal memos; taking hypo exams and evaluating the answers and etc. I just dont know how that can not be considered a MAJOR advantage over some one who did not have some idea of these things on day one. But who knwos maybe this looking back this will be one of my dumb thing I said as an 0L



Classic.  Famous last words, young grasshopper.


When people say that you can't prepare for Law School as a 0L, they mean that you can't do anything during the summer that will give you an advantage over your classmates during the summer.

By the time you get to exams in December, EVERYBODY will know how to brief a case, outline, use lexis/westlaw, spot issues and all that stuff. But everybody won't get an A on the exam because it is one thing to take an exam when you are only being graded objectively, it is completely different when your essay grade depends on how 200+ other eually intelligent students wrote at the same time on the same issues.

I bet a Law School would be a lot different for smart people if there were no curve.



You beat me to it.

I will see this statement, and raise you the most important reason why studying during the summer does no good for 1L exams:

because you haven't met your professor yet.


You can spend the entire summer studying and memorizing that the tort of negligence is (i) duty, (ii) breach, (iii) causation, and (iv) damages and if your professor tells you during 1L that it is (i) bacon, (ii) lettuce, (iii) tomato, and (iv) sandwich, you better be BLT'in it on the final if you want an A.  Not only do you have to cater to your professor's substantive interpretation of the law, but, more importantly, you have to defer to his or her writing format preference.  Some professors want IRAC, some professors want RAC, and some professors want none of the above.  I had a crim professor, (no BS) who gave you X amount of lines for each answer, and your answer had to fit it within those 9 or 10 lines provided on the page because if you went over you were penalized!!!  I wish I was kidding.

So all of that to say, it's great that you're getting exposure to the general process of law school, but

(A) everybody starts from scratch on day 1, and

(B) the only grade that matters is the final


Co-muthafuckin sign!!!  You're not taking K's or Torts, you're taking Ks or Torts according to Professor XYZ.

Burning Sands, Esq.

  • Global Moderator
  • LSD Obsessed
  • ****
  • Posts: 7072
  • Yes We Kan-sas!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Dumb things that we said as 0L's
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2009, 10:30:52 AM »

People really don't understand that the CURVE is what separates lawyers who work for Cravath from lawyers who work for Jimmy Jack Johnson and Associates.





You stupid, kid!   :D


But naw that Curve is the grand mother of all mothers.  I got a B+ in my torts class and afteward I walked into the professor who knew me very well to talk about my grade.  So he asks me for my exam #, I give it to him, he searches through the stack, pulls out my exam and you shoulda seen the look on his face - I think he was more shocked than I was when I saw the grade posted.  He immediately says to me "[Mr. Sands], I don't know what happened here.  I thought for sure you were one of my A papers."

yeah, you and me both buddy.

As he later went on to explain, this was our small section so the class size was somewhere around 20 students, and he was mathematically allowed by the administration to give out only 2 A's.  He straight up told me "if it's any consolation, this is an 'A' paper, and in a larger class you would have certainly received an A."

But not this time. Thanks a lot, curve.



"A lawyer's either a social engineer or a parasite on society. A social engineer is a highly skilled...lawyer who understands the Constitution of the U.S. and knows how to explore its uses in the solving of problems of local communities and in bettering [our] conditions."
Charles H. Houston

Burning Sands, Esq.

  • Global Moderator
  • LSD Obsessed
  • ****
  • Posts: 7072
  • Yes We Kan-sas!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Dumb things that we said as 0L's
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2009, 10:40:33 AM »
Well well, I see lets school this 0L seminar has started lol and the references such as "young grasshoper" starting to come out lol, I feel like I am a freshman on the basketball team all over again lol

Truone & Sands, I see you put my typo on blast like that lol, its all good though I see how yall upperclassmen treating a young "grasshopers" lol. But I get your point that since its only one final, everyone will catch up in regards to technical parts of the lawschool aspect. And for me to argue other wise based on what I think it will be when people who have been through it tell me other wise, will be foolish and a bit naive. But to go down swinging I was looking at from the perspective of "thinking and writing like a lawyer". I felt like it is a mind set you never master and the longer your train yourself the quicker and the better you get at it. I guess that is more of a personal development. Also I was thinking mostly everyone will be on the same level intellectual abiliites and work ethic. Therefore having any kind of advantage, even a slim one, will make the difference of getting those extra few points who sets you apart from the curve. However since you guys have actually gone through the process, I will have to accept your inputs until the time comes for me to speak from first hand experience.


P.S on the curve comment, we just had some of writing assignment grades, graded on a curve, back and lets just say some people are not as "friendly" as they were in the beginning lol. I never seen a line form so quick behind a professor as the day we got our grades back lol


It's all good. Like I said, it's good that you're getting exposure now.  But as you see from the testimony here, studying hard core before 1L is like running a 5K marathon on your own just before meeting up with everybody to run the official 10K marathon together for a grade. 

As far as "thinking like a lawyer," it's a skill that always seemed to evade us as we made our way through law school, but that becomes more and more clear the longer you practice law.  Don't worry, you'll get there in time.

"A lawyer's either a social engineer or a parasite on society. A social engineer is a highly skilled...lawyer who understands the Constitution of the U.S. and knows how to explore its uses in the solving of problems of local communities and in bettering [our] conditions."
Charles H. Houston

Burning Sands, Esq.

  • Global Moderator
  • LSD Obsessed
  • ****
  • Posts: 7072
  • Yes We Kan-sas!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Dumb things that we said as 0L's
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2009, 11:15:05 AM »
Keep in mind that some upperclassmen are just trying to get you to join their organization or validate their own poor choices they made as a 1L.  Long story short: my pseudo-mentor  did not do well her entire law school career. She was always at the bottom of her class.  She also did not network and is now at the PD’s office.  Nothing wrong with the PD’s office but there is if you don’t want to be there.   


This is important. Following that same logic, I think it's important for you (cui bono) to share with those you advise on where you ended up in your class so they know what context to put this advice into.  (haven't read the book yet obviously but you probably do that already)

Just as it is important for you (Obama2) to be very much aware of where the people ended up using their own advice that they are now imparting onto you.  If I tell you to brief cases all day everyday up until the final, and you do it without asking me "so...how'd that whole briefing cases everyday thing work out for ya?" then you could be setting yourself up for failure.

When I was taking the bar exam I purposely sought advice from 2 types of people: those who passed, and those who failed.

I found both groups extremely helpful, and necessary, however the group who failed was overwhelmingly more able to say EXACTLY what did not work and what was a waste of time.  The group who passed were basically only able to tell me what they did, but not necessarily what EXACTLY made them pass.  You feel me? 

But no matter if they failed or if they passed, at the VERY BEGINNING of the conversation my first question to all of them up front was "ok so did you pass or did you fail?"  Straight up.  And folks will have no problem telling you how they did, be it the bar exam or in law school in general.  And from that moment forward you know how to better listen to that person's advice and incorporate it into your mental study strategy as either something to do or something not to do.

So that's my biggest piece of advice to you as you continue to be inundated by the 1000's of pieces of advice that you will undoubtedly receive between now and your first 1L exam - KNOW WHO YOU ARE GETTING ADVICE FROM!!!!!

Word is bond.

"A lawyer's either a social engineer or a parasite on society. A social engineer is a highly skilled...lawyer who understands the Constitution of the U.S. and knows how to explore its uses in the solving of problems of local communities and in bettering [our] conditions."
Charles H. Houston

Matthies

  • LSD Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 5988
    • View Profile
    • Tell me where you are going to school and you get a cat!
Re: Dumb things that we said as 0L's
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2009, 12:12:44 PM »

People really don't understand that the CURVE is what separates lawyers who work for Cravath from lawyers who work for Jimmy Jack Johnson and Associates.





You stupid, kid!   :D


But naw that Curve is the grand mother of all mothers.  I got a B+ in my torts class and afteward I walked into the professor who knew me very well to talk about my grade.  So he asks me for my exam #, I give it to him, he searches through the stack, pulls out my exam and you shoulda seen the look on his face - I think he was more shocked than I was when I saw the grade posted.  He immediately says to me "[Mr. Sands], I don't know what happened here.  I thought for sure you were one of my A papers."

yeah, you and me both buddy.

As he later went on to explain, this was our small section so the class size was somewhere around 20 students, and he was mathematically allowed by the administration to give out only 2 A's.  He straight up told me "if it's any consolation, this is an 'A' paper, and in a larger class you would have certainly received an A."

But not this time. Thanks a lot, curve.





I was in a really small section class (11 people) out of 100 points I got 99.4, next grade behind mine was a 99 highest grade 99.5, I got a B+, why? Because to make the curve a straight 3.0 as required she could only give one A, and no A-, so I was .10 from the highest grade in the class but got lumped into the B+’s along with people who missed as many as 4 whole points to make the curve work.
*In clinical studies, Matthies was well tolerated, but women who are pregnant, nursing or might become pregnant should not take or handle Matthies due to a rare, but serious side effect called him having to make child support payments.

Burning Sands, Esq.

  • Global Moderator
  • LSD Obsessed
  • ****
  • Posts: 7072
  • Yes We Kan-sas!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Dumb things that we said as 0L's
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2009, 07:19:16 PM »

People really don't understand that the CURVE is what separates lawyers who work for Cravath from lawyers who work for Jimmy Jack Johnson and Associates.





You stupid, kid!   :D


But naw that Curve is the grand mother of all mothers.  I got a B+ in my torts class and afteward I walked into the professor who knew me very well to talk about my grade.  So he asks me for my exam #, I give it to him, he searches through the stack, pulls out my exam and you shoulda seen the look on his face - I think he was more shocked than I was when I saw the grade posted.  He immediately says to me "[Mr. Sands], I don't know what happened here.  I thought for sure you were one of my A papers."

yeah, you and me both buddy.

As he later went on to explain, this was our small section so the class size was somewhere around 20 students, and he was mathematically allowed by the administration to give out only 2 A's.  He straight up told me "if it's any consolation, this is an 'A' paper, and in a larger class you would have certainly received an A."

But not this time. Thanks a lot, curve.





I was in a really small section class (11 people) out of 100 points I got 99.4, next grade behind mine was a 99 highest grade 99.5, I got a B+, why? Because to make the curve a straight 3.0 as required she could only give one A, and no A-, so I was .10 from the highest grade in the class but got lumped into the B+’s along with people who missed as many as 4 whole points to make the curve work.


Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn, son!  You got ROBBED!!!!!!!!!! 

That ain't right I tell ya.  Ain't right.
"A lawyer's either a social engineer or a parasite on society. A social engineer is a highly skilled...lawyer who understands the Constitution of the U.S. and knows how to explore its uses in the solving of problems of local communities and in bettering [our] conditions."
Charles H. Houston