Law School Discussion

Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?

Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
« Reply #150 on: May 08, 2009, 12:35:15 PM »
I don't know what is going on here, but I want no part of this.  You people deserve each other.

You're a bunch of f@cking idiots going on and on about very little.

Incidentally, Miss P, I think you're totally off base.  That said, I obviously care a lot less about this than you do.

You have no problem with me.  I'm just showing that Miss P is a @##@#'ing psycho.  The other guy is just background noise.

Matthies

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Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
« Reply #151 on: May 08, 2009, 01:34:02 PM »
jesus how did I miss this train wreck.

i had class where we had to create a huge involved project, each team met with the prof, he told each team what they neeed to do for thier project (so each had diffrent instuctions particular to that project to get thier grade) the day we turned them in, the professor died. They had anouther professor grade the projects who had never even tught the class. Was that fair, no, not really, but that's how they handeled it. Tuesday we lost anouther professor in a freak accindet, we was teaching two classes, exams already over with. Someone else will have to grad ethem. Fair when your write the exam for the prof? No. unexpected *&^% happens, mistakes happen, they can not allways be remidy compleatly fairly. Sometime you gotta just accept the fact that there is not real remdiy for the sitation and some folks will come out ahead and others will not. Such is life unpredicatbl and not usually very fair.

Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
« Reply #152 on: May 08, 2009, 01:40:29 PM »
I agree with your over-arching point, but (unless I missed something by reading too quickly) it seems like all the students were similarly affected in your scenarios.  Then, I don't think there's unfairness.

My opinion is that, if the administration makes a mistake that's likely to disadvantage some students, they should make up for it.  As I admitted, there's a lot of grey area.  Still, I think that there are at least some situations that can and ought to be remedied.

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Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
« Reply #153 on: May 08, 2009, 02:01:03 PM »
I agree with your over-arching point, but (unless I missed something by reading too quickly) it seems like all the students were similarly affected in your scenarios.  Then, I don't think there's unfairness.

My opinion is that, if the administration makes a mistake that's likely to disadvantage some students, they should make up for it.  As I admitted, there's a lot of grey area.  Still, I think that there are at least some situations that can and ought to be remedied.

I donít know if all the students are going to be similarly affected or not, Whoever grades the exams is going to have pet issues that the original prof did not, you happen to make the right pet issue a focal point you will get more credit than you might have otherwise.

 I remember first year (I was not in this class) a visiting prof gave an exam that was literally taken right out one of the supplements. Those people who read that supplement got As. Huge stink about it. They did not change the grades, they decided to just not use that class for ranking so everyone sort of lost out or got a benefit if they did really bad.

Thing is there is never a right answer for these things that will make everyone happy. People who read all he pages are going to think its unfair that people who did not get credit for it. People who missed the pages think its not fair if they get penalized for it. No onanswer will make everyone happy.

*&^% happens, you gotta take the good with the bad. I know for sure some exams I got Aís on that I never deserved, they must have put the wrong letter on the wrong exam. And then there are classes where I honestly believe I got totally screwed out of a good grade.
 
For example Con law, my worst grade in law school, we were allowed to work with classmates on our exam. The only rule was you had to write your own answer (you could not jointly write it or one person write one the other the other) but you could discuss it as much as you wanted.

So me and my best bud sit across from each other at my dining room table talk through each questions, come up with the exact same answers, same cases, same rational and they we each write out our answers. He got second highest grade in the class, I got C+. You can look at our exams and the only thing different is word choice and sentence structures all the exact same arguments and defenses are there in the same order and everything. Nothing to explain his A and my C+, and other groups had the same experience, worked together same answers, but huge difference in grades. It was like he threw darts at the exams with letters on them.

*&^% just happens you gotta take the good with the bad and roll with the flow. When law schools exams are completely subjective affairs with no right answers nothing is ever going to be really fair.

Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
« Reply #154 on: May 08, 2009, 02:11:39 PM »
I agree that law school exam grading is totally subjective and your story about the C+/A is a real eye opener.  Based on what you wrote, however, I think we would draw different conclusions from the same set of circumstances. 

From my perspective, the fact that LS grading is so subjective makes it even more important for the administrative playing field to be totally level.  Form and style matter, even if the official line is that theyíre not supposed to.  Then, the state of mind of the exam taker matters (confidence, nervousness, whether or not he/she is rushing) even more than it would on a more objective test.  In my mind, thatís all the more reason to make sure that no student faces any extra burdens during the test administration than does any other.

Iím not saying this is the only way to see this issue, but thatís how I look at it.

All that said, I still maintain that Miss P and the beaver with leg warmers are Hitler and Mussolini, respectively. ;)  This, after all, is the main point of the thread and we shouldnl't veer too far off topic. 

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Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
« Reply #155 on: May 08, 2009, 02:33:35 PM »
I agree that law school exam grading is totally subjective and your story about the C+/A is a real eye opener.  Based on what you wrote, however, I think we would draw different conclusions from the same set of circumstances. 

From my perspective, the fact that LS grading is so subjective makes it even more important for the administrative playing field to be totally level.  Form and style matter, even if the official line is that theyíre not supposed to.  Then, the state of mind of the exam taker matters (confidence, nervousness, whether or not he/she is rushing) even more than it would on a more objective test.  In my mind, thatís all the more reason to make sure that no student faces any extra burdens during the test administration than does any other.

Iím not saying this is the only way to see this issue, but thatís how I look at it.

All that said, I still maintain that Miss P and the beaver with leg warmers are Hitler and Mussolini, respectively. ;)  This, after all, is the main point of the thread and we shouldnl't veer too far off topic. 



Yea I certainly think there are different ways to see it. I guess I see it the way I see it because Iíve been through this crap for five years now (JD + LLM/MLS) and like I said to you in another thread, nothing in law school surprises me anymore and Iíve given up trying to make sense of it or thinks itís a fair process, its not.

Another example that just happened to me today. I took my last law school exam ever last tonight. Today I get a call from the registrar asking if I turned in my exam. I start to freak out, yes I turned in my exam! They donít have it. No exam for me. The log shows I turned in my exam but its nowhere to be found. There is no copy of the exam. Iím almost hyper ventilating at this point. My last class, last exam and my test is missing. Not at all my fault, registrar has me as turning it, but its gone. So a few more minutes of reconstructing my last moments turning it in and they are able to figure out it got misplaced on a chair. OMG heart attack averted.

But what if they never found it? What then? What options? Retake the test after I already know the questions and can look up the answers? Take a median grade even though I might have gotten an A and I need this class to make honors? Give me an A because they lost it even though maybe I did C work? If they do that then to make the curve work someone has to get bumped down to a A- that deserved an A.

Its not my fault, but what can the administration do to make it right, anything they do screws me for something 100% not my fault and impossible for me to correct for. Itís a classic no win situation. Nothing they can do will make it fair to me or to my classmates. Thank god I did not have to face that dilemma, but I was ready for it. I was ready to get screwed because sometimes that what happens in life. You do everything right and you still get the shaft. What may seem fair to me, give me an A, is not fair to the A- guy. Itís a no win situation without any fair resolution. Thatís life sometimes, *&^% happens. Sure I would be pissed and mad, but thatís not going to change the fact that it is a losing situation all the way around and nothing can be done to make it ďright.Ē



Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
« Reply #156 on: May 08, 2009, 02:34:01 PM »
It's a hedgehog, thank you very much. And they're casts. Get it right.

Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
« Reply #157 on: May 08, 2009, 02:37:44 PM »
mussolinisayswhat?

Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
« Reply #158 on: May 08, 2009, 02:41:04 PM »
I agree that law school exam grading is totally subjective and your story about the C+/A is a real eye opener.  Based on what you wrote, however, I think we would draw different conclusions from the same set of circumstances. 

From my perspective, the fact that LS grading is so subjective makes it even more important for the administrative playing field to be totally level.  Form and style matter, even if the official line is that theyíre not supposed to.  Then, the state of mind of the exam taker matters (confidence, nervousness, whether or not he/she is rushing) even more than it would on a more objective test.  In my mind, thatís all the more reason to make sure that no student faces any extra burdens during the test administration than does any other.

Iím not saying this is the only way to see this issue, but thatís how I look at it.

All that said, I still maintain that Miss P and the beaver with leg warmers are Hitler and Mussolini, respectively. ;)  This, after all, is the main point of the thread and we shouldnl't veer too far off topic. 



Yea I certainly think there are different ways to see it. I guess I see it the way I see it because Iíve been through this crap for five years now (JD + LLM/MLS) and like I said to you in another thread, nothing in law school surprises me anymore and Iíve given up trying to make sense of it or thinks itís a fair process, its not.

Another example that just happened to me today. I took my last law school exam ever last tonight. Today I get a call from the registrar asking if I turned in my exam. I start to freak out, yes I turned in my exam! They donít have it. No exam for me. The log shows I turned in my exam but its nowhere to be found. There is no copy of the exam. Iím almost hyper ventilating at this point. My last class, last exam and my test is missing. Not at all my fault, registrar has me as turning it, but its gone. So a few more minutes of reconstructing my last moments turning it in and they are able to figure out it got misplaced on a chair. OMG heart attack averted.

But what if they never found it? What then? What options? Retake the test after I already know the questions and can look up the answers? Take a median grade even though I might have gotten an A and I need this class to make honors? Give me an A because they lost it even though maybe I did C work? If they do that then to make the curve work someone has to get bumped down to a A- that deserved an A.

Its not my fault, but what can the administration do to make it right, anything they do screws me for something 100% not my fault and impossible for me to correct for. Itís a classic no win situation. Nothing they can do will make it fair to me or to my classmates. Thank god I did not have to face that dilemma, but I was ready for it. I was ready to get screwed because sometimes that what happens in life. You do everything right and you still get the shaft. What may seem fair to me, give me an A, is not fair to the A- guy. Itís a no win situation without any fair resolution. Thatís life sometimes, poo happens. Sure I would be pissed and mad, but thatís not going to change the fact that it is a losing situation all the way around and nothing can be done to make it ďright.Ē




Yeah, but so what then?  Do you think that if it had not been found (the exam) you should have failed automatically?  I can't believe you do.  I certainly don't.

I'm not sure what the best way to remedy that situation would be, as you indicate it would be tricky.  But surely automatically failing you for their losing the exam wouldn't be on the table as an option.  Not in my universe, anyway.

Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
« Reply #159 on: May 08, 2009, 02:52:34 PM »
mussolinisayswhat?

Before you guys start burning effigies, please note that I am kidding.