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Author Topic: prosecute torturers!  (Read 8208 times)

bl825

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Re: prosecute torturers!
« Reply #90 on: April 22, 2009, 09:20:52 PM »
clearly, you wouldn't.  and julie didn't either.

now put tongue back in.  on ferris wheel, it get dried out.

Actually, I think you did.

Whatever, it's just splitting hairs.  :P
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goaliechica

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Re: prosecute torturers!
« Reply #91 on: April 22, 2009, 10:01:41 PM »
Yes, I KNOW it was rendered moot..that wasnt my point. My point was that the Constitution isnt some holy grail, and it's subject to amendments.

We aren't even talking about the Constitution. We're talking about international law--treaties that we signed, and even had a major part in authoring in some cases. And again, last I checked, those haven't been "amended" to make the US an exception.

actually, constitution quite relevant as limit on power of president do whatever want.  torture, even of enemy combatants, illegal by u.s. statute.

Not exactly a constitutional argument there...

There is a constitutional separation of powers. If a president violates a law that congress has validly passed, and his action is not permissible under his war powers or some other inherent power, then that is unconstitutional. Folks may disagree about whether that's what happened here, but it is a constitutional argument.

I recognize that I am like ten pages behind and should probably not leap in, but I can't help it  :D
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goaliechica

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Re: prosecute torturers!
« Reply #92 on: April 22, 2009, 10:04:19 PM »
I don't think it's relevant at all in terms of how captured Americans would be treated. Why not just say that we don't torture because that's just not something we do?

you one so intent on making this purely issue international law.

ever hear geneva conventions?

I think you misunderstand me, but that's fine.  I'm just saying that the best justification for making torture illegal, under domestic or international law, is that it is contrary to our beliefs about the way people should treat each other.  If it prevents our enemies from torturing captured Americans, that's great.  But even if it doesn't, there's reason enough to make it illegal.

And if you think that every statute raises an issue of upholding the Constitution, well you go on and think that.  :)

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goaliechica

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Re: prosecute torturers!
« Reply #93 on: April 22, 2009, 10:06:40 PM »
I don't think it's relevant at all in terms of how captured Americans would be treated. Why not just say that we don't torture because that's just not something we do?

you one so intent on making this purely issue international law.

ever hear geneva conventions?

And if you think that every statute raises an issue of upholding the Constitution, well you go on and think that. :)

julie never say "every," although would if specigic context checking presidential power, especially in military matters.

and you clearly have no familiarity with those torture memos, which are entirely about presidential power bypass statutes under constitution.

I'd be careful about making assumptions.  ;)

I agree that the proper scope of congressional and presidential powers is a constitutional issue, but the way you're discussing it doesn't seem quite right: it's a constitutional issue because there are statutes forbidding torture?  That's not right.  It would have made more sense if you said it was a constitutional issue because it violated such and such clause or amendment (I was thinking the Eighth).

Again, there is a constitutional separation of powers. Branches of government are limited, and when they overstep the powers they have been granted by the constitution, that is unconstitutional.
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goaliechica

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Re: prosecute torturers!
« Reply #94 on: April 22, 2009, 10:11:00 PM »
My point is that while there is a debate about constitutional powers involved, the idea of upholding the constitution is probably not the best way to go about arguing against torture.  (That's what it looked like you were doing.)  Why bring the constitution into it at all if you don't have to?  It's illegal, any way you cut it.

Because those are the highest law of the land, and the crux of the arguments that the memos are making is about what constitutional powers are. The whole point is that if the president has overstepped his powers, either by violating international law, legitimate statutes passed by congress, or just otherwise acted in some way that he is not permitted to act by the constitution, that is a constitutional problem. Now, the memos (more or less - full disclosure, I haven't read them all) argue that he is allowed to violate these laws because of his inherent war powers and other inherent Presidential powers. If that is a winning argument, if his inherent presidential powers are so strong that he is allowed to trump U.S. statutes and international law, then it doesn't matter whether there are other laws prohibiting torture or not. It all comes back to the constitution, and how much power the President really has. That's why this is fundamentally a constitutional argument.
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goaliechica

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Re: prosecute torturers!
« Reply #95 on: April 22, 2009, 10:12:22 PM »
clearly, you wouldn't.  and julie didn't either.

now put tongue back in.  on ferris wheel, it get dried out.

Actually, I think you did.

Whatever, it's just splitting hairs.  :P

Disagree  :P
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Scentless Apprentice

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Re: prosecute torturers!
« Reply #96 on: April 22, 2009, 10:37:25 PM »
100 replies in one day?  WTF?  Is this TLS?  ::)

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LSN

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Re: prosecute torturers!
« Reply #97 on: April 22, 2009, 11:06:48 PM »
I don't think it's relevant at all in terms of how captured Americans would be treated. Why not just say that we don't torture because that's just not something we do?

you one so intent on making this purely issue international law.

ever hear geneva conventions?

Only applies to uniformed combatants, which terrorists aren't. We could give them a summary execution as soon as we captured them as we wanted to

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Re: prosecute torturers!
« Reply #98 on: April 22, 2009, 11:59:52 PM »
...these torturers should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law...and if they don't confess and come clean...we can torture them into confessing and then we can put them on trial and then put them to death...

...and then we can shoot them...

...yes...this will all be very productive...


...meanwhile in other parts of the world...torture is part of everyday life.


...so let us all stay on our moral high horse...


ps. there have been developed more expeditious ways these days to interrogate prisoners to get information...and it doesn't involve torture...very effective, too...cia now employs these methods... :)


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bl825

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Re: prosecute torturers!
« Reply #99 on: April 23, 2009, 07:03:51 AM »
100 replies in one day?  WTF?  Is this TLS?  ::)

Apparently part of the problem is that I'm having difficulty communicating exactly what I am trying to say.  :(

I should probably work on that.
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