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Author Topic: Tulane (25K) or St. John's full ride  (Read 4492 times)

LawDog3

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Re: Tulane (25K) or St. John's full ride
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2009, 02:19:36 AM »
If BIGLaw's your goal, then even as a current SJU student, it's kinda hard for me to say pass up on Tulane. What are the scholarship maitnenance requirements for Tulane? The SJU offer requires top half of the class to maintain, correct? If you're not set on BIGLaw, then you might want to consider the advantages of not having to repay law school debt... assuming you maintain the Tulane scholarship for the duration, you'll still have about $45k in debt, correct?
Of course, I have to concede the biggest argument in favor of Tulane... Bourbon Street. ;-)
Good luck,
Rob


Tulane's scholarship maintenance is 3.0, with a 3.1 curve (that's good) and I would venture to guess that SJU scholy maintenance is about 3.1 with a 2.8 curve, which wouldn't be good (I don't really know, just speculating). 

bl825

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Re: Tulane (25K) or St. John's full ride
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2009, 09:41:32 AM »
While I think that LawDog's high opinion of Tulane is slanted due to the fact that he's heading there in the fall, I agree with his basic point that Tulane is the better choice in this instance.  $45k in debt is still significant, but not unmanageable even if you don't end up working at a big firm.

Of course it's not just $45k; you have to factor in loans for other things.  But that would be the case at SJU as well.
Oh yea...you're delicious and lean, but unsustainable and not to be consumed daily.

Aristone07

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Re: Tulane (25K) or St. John's full ride
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2009, 03:18:45 PM »
While I agree that you should really look at the contingencies placed on each scholarship before deciding, I still not agree with Lawdog's assessment of Tulane.  Once again, Tulane is a good school...but by no means national.  The only truly national schools are the T14 (and even some of those can hold you back dependant on grades).  By national...I mean you can pretty much go anywhere in the country as long as you're not a moron during interviews.  Tulane does not offer that luxury. 

I'd really love to see the statistics "from your end" that have Tulane beating schools like UNC, Wustl, Emory and even UConn (which is a whopping 1 1/2-2 hours from NYC).  My point is...despite what you say...neither is truly national in career prospects.  You would need to do exceedinly well at either in this economy (think top 10-20%) to land biglaw interviews in NYC.  That is simply a crapshoot I wouldn't take right now.

I won't even remark about the waitlist comment. 

Goodluck in your choices OP. 

RobWreck

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Re: Tulane (25K) or St. John's full ride
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2009, 06:48:02 PM »
In response to both Aristone07's and Lawdog3's comments, the choice reallyt boils down to what the OP wants. The OP indicated, iirc, that they wanted BIGLaw... not specifically NY BIGLaw. While you may need to be in the top 1/5th of the class of having a shot at BIGLaw, I'm of the impression that a Tulane degree reaches more markets than one from SJU. Not necessarily any better chances at NY BIGLaw, but the access to other markets gives the advantage to Tulane.
If the OP is more interested in living & practicing in NY than just getting BIGLaw position anyplace, then SJU's local networking would certainly be a great advantage for midlaw, government and publc interest areas.
Then you have to consider the scholarship concerns. Everyone goes into law school 'knowing' that they'll be in the top 10%, but as 90% of the people find out, that isn't the case. If you only have a 50/50 chance of keeping the free ride @ SJU, whereas you are guarenteed at least 1/4 ride even if you drop below the requirement, the money might add up better at Tulane. Tulane costs $45k if OP keeps the scholly, SJU is free if he keeps the scholly. If OP loses the SJU scholly after the first year and doesn't regain it, OP's out about $80k. If OP loses the Tulane scholly after the first year,then OP's out about $70k... comparable results either way. But assuming OP keeps the scholly, which seems equally likely at either school, SJU gets the nod b/c of the lack of debt.
What's important to the OP? Location? Chance at BIGLaw (which really is a roll of the dice nowadays)? Debt?
Kinda hard to definitively say which way to go...
Rob

PS: Tulane still gets the nod because of Bourbon Street. :-D
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LawDog3

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Re: Tulane (25K) or St. John's full ride
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2009, 12:10:19 AM »
While I agree that you should really look at the contingencies placed on each scholarship before deciding, I still not agree with Lawdog's assessment of Tulane.  Once again, Tulane is a good school...but by no means national.  The only truly national schools are the T14 (and even some of those can hold you back dependant on grades).  By national...I mean you can pretty much go anywhere in the country as long as you're not a moron during interviews.  Tulane does not offer that luxury. 

I'd really love to see the statistics "from your end" that have Tulane beating schools like UNC, Wustl, Emory and even UConn (which is a whopping 1 1/2-2 hours from NYC).  My point is...despite what you say...neither is truly national in career prospects.  You would need to do exceedinly well at either in this economy (think top 10-20%) to land biglaw interviews in NYC.  That is simply a crapshoot I wouldn't take right now.

I won't even remark about the waitlist comment. 

Goodluck in your choices OP. 

My assertion is not BigLaw related. But you are playing semantics, here, so I will try to split hairs with you.

Tulane isn't "national" in terms of general public reputation, but it is "national" in terms of placement and "relative placement" (i.e., the ratio of grads who stay in the school's market v. leaving it)...certainly more national than St. John's and many other schools, including several of those ranked above it. As pragmatists, this should be our #1 concern, right? Getting jobs or having "access to 'employment'" after completing our educations.

Any time a school cracks all major legal markets in terms of placement, as does Tulane, it can loosely be said to be national. But try this concept on:

Vanderbilt...local or national? It's national b/c of placement patterns and the fact that most of its graduates seek to practice in other markets, namely NY, DC, GA and IL. Some schools have a certain dynamic that makes them national by definition, namely that they're situated in or near weaker legal markets where graduates do not clamor to work, like Detroit (or Ann Arbor), Nashville (or Memphis) or New orleans.

While I agree that most of the T-14 schools are "national" in terms of public reputation, most of their placements are "regional". And several schools outside of the mythical T14 place very well nationally. How many UVA grads DO NOT go to NY or D.C....or stay in Virginia?

Compare that with the percentage of Tulane grads who go across the country to work in NY, DC, IL or even CA.

http://www.law.tulane.edu/assets/0/162/164/211C2A33-2DB5-466C-8E97-ACD15559625B.pdf

Still skeptical? How about this timely quote from TLS?

Whereas similarly ranked schools tend to have regionally-limited reputations, Tulane Law School’s reputation seems to have a much more national reach. The majority of the school’s students leave Louisiana to begin their legal careers, and significant numbers of students land jobs in New York, Washington DC, and on the West Coast. (See link below)

http://www.top-law-schools.com/tulane-law-school.html

Or this one refering to "outdegrees" (i.e., law schools' effects upon other law schools)? Tulane ranks #25, right up there with the big boys! ;)

The authors say that "outdegree provides a blunt measure of the relative influence a given institution might display. The model emphasizes how, for historically elite institutions, 'peer effects' allow such schools to become intellectual superspreaders," with the alumni from one law school playing key roles in shaping the curriculum at another.

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/college-rankings-blog/2009/3/26/a-new-ranking-of-law-schools-effects-on-other-law-schools.html

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1352656

Where are UNC, Emory, WUSTL, and UConn when it comes to influencing other law schools nationally and, thus, national markets? And where are they when it comes to getting jobs in top national markets? This is a reflection of national influence and reputation.
   
To be fair, I did find some OCI stats on LSN that point to Tulane being weaker nationally than Emory, WUSTL (which seems to be backpedalling a little) and UNC. However, UConn certainly did not trump Tulane. Moreover, those other schools are better situated geographically. For a small school in the Gulf region to do what Tulane does is miraculous. Those other schools are doing "pretty well" but they don't perform the way Tulane would if it were in a better market. Emory isn't even the top school in its state, ensofar as employment goes; Georgia and Vandy do better. And remember, OCI has nothing to do with the work done by the respective Career Services Office or the networks a given school has.   

http://tulane.lawschoolnumbers.com/careers

Aristone07

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Re: Tulane (25K) or St. John's full ride
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2009, 03:54:23 AM »
Neither of us have any clue what Tulane includes in their employment statistics.  Tulane is more "national" than St. Johns, but that is like saying American is more national than New England School of Law (which places primarily in Boston and lower NH).  Honestly, no one is impressed by that argument. 

Here's one for you...Cooley Law has this on their website as well as review.com:

Graduates Employed by Region
New England:  1%
Middle Atlantic:  10%
South:  20%
MidWest:  53%
Mountain:  7%
South West:  3%
Pacific Region:  4%
International:  2%

Tulane (thanks review.com):

New England:  4%
Middle Atlantic:  23%
South:  21%
MidWest:  4%
Mountain:  2%
South West:  33%
Pacific Region:  9%
International:  1%


Wow...Cooley reaches an international market moreso according to stats...they must be an "international" school.  Furthermore, according to your definition...Cooley "cracks all major legal markets (whether it is 1% or 2%)"  While my example is extreme, it follows a basic argument - a school's employment stats should be taken with a grain of salt.  National, to the average law student, means that he or she can get placement in their city of choice regardless of where they land in the class (why else would someone from NYC/SF go to Tulane or Vandy or Harvard). 

What it honestly comes down to is...how hard is it go get a job below median at any school.  It is equally difficult at both Tulane and SJU in New York/northeast.  Fortunately, SJU offers a strong local alumni base in NYC.  Here are some examples of top firms and their recruiting:

Skadden - 30 lawyers for SJU, Tulane - 15 lawyers (mostly NYC, 3 on west coast).
Sullivan - 5 lawyers from SJU, none from Tulane.
Paul Hastings - 8 from SJU (including LA), 4 from Tulane.
Cravath - 4 SJU, 1 Tulane.
Davis, Polk - 7 SJU (including London, LA), 0 Tulane
Simpson - 26 SJU, 0 Tulane
Paul Weiss - 6 SJU, 2 Tulane
Cleary - 3 SJU, 7 Tulane
Weil - 21 SJU, 12 Tulane
Covington - SJU 0, Tulane 2.
Kirkland - SJU 4, Tulane 6.
Wilmer - SJU 3, Tulane 2.

While most of SJU is in NYC...we need to know where OP wants to practice.  Tulane does offer some more national breadth...but it's astounding how Tulane grad students make their school seem truly national.  This is not Harvard...or Columbia...or even Boston University (none of which I attended).  Tulane is aggrandized on this forum and it should not be.  While it places better than the schools around it...isn't that like saying it's the biggest midget in the circus?

Look at your scholarships OP and determine where you want to work.  While some may suggest SJU as the inferior school here (and statistically, it is)...go with your gut.  None of us can attempt to dissuade you in any way.  And please look into both SJU and Tulane stats...biglaw and medium law are hard to come by these days.  So visit, ask students, see what the atmosphere is like.  Debt is a hard thing to overcome though.

Goodluck.



LawDog3

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Re: Tulane (25K) or St. John's full ride
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2009, 04:01:02 AM »
Yes, in NY, but let's compare apples to apples. How do the schools compare to each other in outside markets: L.A. (CA), Bay Area, GA, FL, D.C., IL,?

Secondly, Tulane at least puts a dent, however small, in the NY market. What kind of dent can SJU put in NOLA?

SJU SHOULD and had better be getting employment in NY. It's the largest legal market and most populated city in the country. That's a given.

But the argument I am making is this:

Which dunker are you most impressed with, Nate Robinson? or Dwight Howard? Which player/school does more with less access?

Secondly, how many Nate Robinsons make the NBA? How many schools of Tulanes age, location, size, etc, do what Tulane does? None!

Also, your argument IS an extreme version of what I am saying. I not only argue that Tulane is more national than SJU, I am arguing that it is at least comparable to supposedly better (or certainly higher ranked) schools.

But no...I get your point...a heavy feather isn't "heavy". In fact LSAT-180 used a LR question with "light tanks" (which are still heavy) in it.

BTW, this looks somewhat accurate but not quite:

Tulane (thanks review.com):

New England:  4%
Middle Atlantic:  23%
South:  21%
MidWest:  4%
Mountain:  2%
South West:  33%
Pacific Region:  9%
International:  1%

CCWake13

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Re: Tulane (25K) or St. John's full ride
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2009, 11:53:51 AM »
Thanks for the input everyone; I appreciate it.  While I understand the argument that Tulane might not be truly national compared to the T14 or others (Emory, Wash U, UNC, etc) I don't think it's relevant as I am not considering those schools at this point.  Rather, the question is it worth it to buy the Tulane name and the recognition in markets outside of NY.  St. John's would be free and at least has the tie to one strong market.  I have heard that Tulane does well in various markets, but not sure how relevant that is unless I'm worried that I wouldn't be able to penetrate the NY market with a degree from SJU in this economy without being at the top of the class.  I suspect Rob might have the most insight into that. 

And to be honest, I grew up on Long Island and am looking forward to a change of pace of New Orleans, for what it's worth.

Thanks again.

RobWreck

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Re: Tulane (25K) or St. John's full ride
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2009, 06:01:25 PM »
Well, no one (aside from T-14 grads) is having an easy time in this job market, so you really want to have your options open. Of course, this isn't a black & white decision... you have options for more legal markets with a degree from Tulane, but you have options for more jobs if you don't have to worry about making any student loan payments.
What's making you go to law school? Is it a public interest-oriented drive? If so, then go with the full scholly @ SJU. If it's for the power and prestige of being a BIGLaw attorney, you've got better odds from Tulane... maybe not better in NY, but the ability to place in other markets raises the total number of possible BIGLaw openings potentially available to you.
As a (long time ago) grad of Oyster Bay High School, I hear your comments about wanting something different than Long Island... but law school doesn't leave a whole heck of alot of 'fun time'... especially if you want to be in that top 20% of the class that gets BIGLaw opportunities. As for the appeal of New Orleans, my first visit there was for a bachelor party in mid-March... it's DEFINITELY a place to go for a fun time, but I don't know about living there. In fact, my gut feeling is that the things that make it such a fun place to be are really the last temptations a law student needs if they want to be a top student... I know I'd be sucked into Bourbon Street far too often. ;-)
Rob

PS: Every spring break, SJU sends a contingent of law students down to New Orleans for public interest work... if you visit the school, ask about it. It's one way of getting a taste of NOLA without relocating there...
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STLGirlAtHeart

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Re: Tulane (25K) or St. John's full ride
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2009, 07:04:44 PM »
As a (long time ago) grad of Oyster Bay High School, I hear your comments about wanting something different than Long Island... but law school doesn't leave a whole heck of alot of 'fun time'... especially if you want to be in that top 20% of the class that gets BIGLaw opportunities. As for the appeal of New Orleans, my first visit there was for a bachelor party in mid-March... it's DEFINITELY a place to go for a fun time, but I don't know about living there. In fact, my gut feeling is that the things that make it such a fun place to be are really the last temptations a law student needs if they want to be a top student... I know I'd be sucked into Bourbon Street far too often. ;-)

Well, Rob, I will trust you on every thing else, but I just wanted to speak to living in New Orleans while going to law school, since I'm at Tulane now.

Bourbon St, I have found, is not really a problem.  Uptown can be a world away from the French Quarter and Bourbon St if it needs to be.  I guess it could take self-control not to go there, but honestly, you will be so busy your 1L year, you will not even think about it.

Granted, I don't have any other law school experience to compare it to, since this is the only one I have.  But as I've said, Bourbon St is really not a problem.  It just provides a nice place to unwind/go crazy when it is time to do so.

I'm at Tulane with KC'sGF, and I'm going to go ahead and second her sentiments. In the two years I've been here, I've been to Bourbon street maybe 5 times. I think every one of those times was because I had people visiting me from out of town. Trust me, Bourbon gets old pretty fast. When I go out, its usually to a bar a few blocks from where I live, or down on Frenchman street. But I really don't feel any temptation to go out when I'm studying. Facebook interferes with studying a lot more than the party scene down here.

One of the best things about going to school in New Orleans, though, is the Mardi Gras break we get every year. Everything in the city shuts down for 4 days and everyone just has a great time.

Also, I don't know it it helps the OP or not, but I can definitely see firsthand Tulane's national reach. I'm from the Midwest, but I worked here in New Orleans last summer and I'll be in New Jersey this summer. (I have absolutely no contacts in New Jersey.) I have friends that have spent their summers in Birmingham, Dallas, Chicago, Houston, DC, NYC, Atlanta, LA, San Diego, and Rwanda (to name just a few).  Some of them clerked for judges, some worked at mid-sized firms, and some worked in BigLaw.