Law School Discussion

taft law school

Re: taft law school
« Reply #80 on: August 12, 2015, 05:03:08 PM »
I think that is what LP and I often say.

I don't think anyone anywhere including Taft law School itself would say it is as good as an ABA school or that there is a guarantee of a job or a guarantee of bar passage.  In fact, no school except Wisconsin/Marquette guarantees you will pass the bar they have degree privilege and as far as I know only Westpoint and Annapolis guarantee their graduates jobs out of school.

I will build on your NBA analogy Steve Nash a 6'1 white Canadian won the NBA MVP it "can" happen. However, I or anyone else with a shred of logic would not tell a 6'1 white kid with no jumping ability living in Canada the NBA is in their grasp and certainly not the NBA "MVP", but it happened.

 I would even tell a 7'2 guys that jump out of the building the same thing although they have a better shot. Plenty of 7'2 guys do not make the NBA about 5% of high school players play in any level of college basketball and about 1% play at D1 schools half of which are usually walk on. There are 317 D1 Teams each with for math purposes lets say 12 roster spots, which means 3,804 D1 players and a D1 player is in the top 1 of high school players. Of these elite of elite there are 30 draft picks with guaranteed contracts and international players are drafted so about 20 college players get drafted in a year.

The odds of making millions with a law degree from Harvard or any other law school are about the same. Going to a DL school makes the 1% chance a .01 % chance and the truth is to whatever "making it" means in any profession are against you, but low and behold we all struggle day in and day out hoping to "make it" and in the 1% chance we "make it" we will still want more.

Nobody out there will say Taft is an amazing school. It will offer you a chance to take the bar exam in California and possibly through legal maneuvering enable you to take another exam, but no guarantee.

So the point of the rant is there is no easy way plenty of people go to "good" schools and get hit by bus and never work in a day, get strung out on heroin, or god knows what could happen.  This crazy chick went to Taft law school and is passionate about Obama's birth certificate that is how she chooses to spend her time and Taft has given her that chance. That is what she wants I don't, but she got the benefit of her bargain.

I think it really comes down to expectations. 99% of people in any ABA or even CBA law school class have had a pretty f'ing blessed life. There are literally billions of people in the world that would trade places to be in that position, but these students expect the bar to be passed for them, to not get rejected by employers, to not fail, and not having something bad happen.

People going to law school, undergrad, or pursuing any profession just need to do a reality check before pursuing it. I recently was talking to this kid who will be attending Cooley and he thinks he will make millions at graduation. Cooley did not tell him that he made up in his own head. That is nobody's fault, but his own, because even if he went to Harvard millions at graduation aren't coming.

Well that is what happens when you drink two red bulls within two hours end of rant. : )



loki13

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Re: taft law school
« Reply #81 on: August 13, 2015, 07:38:55 AM »
"The odds of making millions with a law degree from Harvard or any other law school are about the same."

That's just a false statement. First, if you really want to make tons of money (as opposed to a lot of money), get an MBA and take some risks. Start a firm. But if you want to the best shot of making "millions," then, yes, Harvard is your best bet. Sure, some people will go to "Random Law School U" and strike it rich as a plaintiff's attorney. But if you want the best odds of one of those million-dollar partner jobs, Harvard is the place to go. You're pretty much guaranteed an opportunity to compete for one (getting a rung on the BigLaw(tm)) latter). Let's go with a football analogy. If you want to play in the NFL-
Then Harvard is a guaranteed slot in training camp.
Other schools are like going to Alabama.
Other schools are like going to a FCS school.
DL is like going to a NESCAC (DIII) school- it's theoretically possible, and people have done it, but that might not be your best option if you want to play in the NFL.

"So the point of the rant is there is no easy way plenty of people go to "good" schools and get hit by bus and never work in a day, get strung out on heroin, or god knows what could happen."

Just stop it. This is why your advice is bad. You can't acknowledge the obvious truth. Yes, I am sure that there are people that go to good schools and get hit by a bus or strung out on heroin- but I'm guessing that bad things happen to people at bad schools as well. Your constant reiteration of (paraphrasing) "any school that might eventually let you take a bar somewhere is just dandy" is wrong. Moreover, we just went through a period where advice, just like you are giving now, hurt people. Badly. That you haven't learned from these mistakes, and continue to parrot this terrible point is telling.

/rant

Re: taft law school
« Reply #82 on: August 13, 2015, 10:45:01 AM »
They do happen to people at bad, medium and good schools.

Yes I agree with your football camp analogy and it sounds like we are in agreement. A degree from Harvard will get you into training camp, but not a roster spot.

Harvard is a great school and will undoubtedly open more doors.

If you want to be an NBA Basketball Player being 7'0 is better than being 6'2 . No argument there, but can a 6'2 guy do better than a 7'0 yes it happens, but I will bet on the 7'0 everytime.

I will bet on a Harvard Grad over a Taft Grad anyday of the week nobody is arguing that, but as with any bet it could go wrong the Taft Grad might end up being better, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I don't think anybody was hurt by going to law school. It didn't work for some people that is life and I wouldn't tell anyone oh you got into Taft Law School your set for life you really did it. I would say a non-aba school the odds are against you and thinking you will "work really hard" and do great isn't the same as doing it. Everybody thinks that and for the most part when the rubber meets the road people back down.

I encourage anyone to attend an ABA school over a non-aba school.


loki13

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Re: taft law school
« Reply #83 on: August 13, 2015, 10:59:23 AM »
"I don't think anybody was hurt by going to law school."

Let's be clear here. People were hurt, some badly. Now, we can debate whether these people were partially, mostly, or totally to blame for it. Whether they should have done their own research in, say, 2007 rather than depending on T4U's glossies and a half-remembered episode of Boston Legal. But the simple reality is that a large number of young people went to schools, spent three years of their life (which they will not get back), spent 200k (which they will not get back), spent the opportunity cost (which they will not get back), have gigantic student loans (which, like herpes, will stay with you forever- and they're even larger if they had to finance UG), and will never, ever, work in the legal profession. Moreover, contrary to some beliefs, a law degree is not a great "general purpose" degree, and I know from talking to many who were in those years that they omit their JD when they apply for certain, lower-level jobs because it is a hindrance to employment.

But that's why it's so important to emphasize that law school really should be a risk/reward situation. If you are paying for it, then it needs to be treated like a job opportunity- an investment. And most people wouldn't invest without trying to cost in the risk, and the possible payoffs. That's why, when we discuss what we would "bet on," it's important to state things clearly.

Sure, Taft might work for some people. But that's going to be an incredibly small subset of people. For the vast majority of people, the standard advice is, and should always be, attend the lowest cost ABA-accredited school in (or near) the jurisdiction in which you plan to practice (if you are completely agnostic about where you want to practice, that's increases your options, but factor in cost of living). Check the scholarship conditions. Be wary of certain schools (although they may have attractive options- do your research). Check the real employment numbers, and where students likely place. You can make an exception to this if you get into a T14 school, and believe you want to either do a clerkship/2 years in BigLaw/academic route, or the BigLaw route, or you have other clearly identifiable goals that the connections will help with.

Re: taft law school
« Reply #84 on: August 13, 2015, 11:14:21 AM »
I agree 100%.

Law school is a risk as is any form form of education and don't do it expecting anything to be handed to you . Additionally, the lower the level the law school you attend the harder it will be to succeed, but for all intents and purposes most ABA schools are on the same level the location/cost matters more than whatever a school is "ranked" with obvious exceptions Harvard, Yale Stanford and the like.

 A non-aba is not the same level as an ABA school. Although you might be able to get licensed in another state after passing the California Bar Exam you will have to fight just to take the test. I personally have been to lazy to fill out some paperwork to get admitted into the D.C. Bar and I certainly would not want to or get around to filing a lawsuit to take a bar exam.

 I also recommend anyone attending law school to try working in a law office for a year or two as a paralegal or something.   The life of a lawyer is not as cool as it is portrayed on TV and that can be said about every profession.  like every other profession is not as cool as it is on T.V.

Additionally, just because you attend law school does not mean your a special little snowflake as I tell anyone that attends law school there is a 90% chance they won't be in the top 10% and a 50% chance they will be in the bottom-half of their class. Realistically, if you want attend Cooley and finish in the bottom half of your class your job prospects are not ideal, but you take that risk when choosing to enter.

There are no guarantees and law school is expensive it is a choice people make, but all a law school owes you is the right to take a bar exam. That is all they are selling.






Re: taft law school
« Reply #85 on: August 13, 2015, 03:10:16 PM »
Well back when I attended Taft it was about $1000 a year tuition and another $600 a year for the books and outlines.  Another $1000 for FYLSE related costs and maybe $1500 for the bar exam related costs.  So costs also used to be criteria but as I understand it the spread is not  that big anymorebetween DL and ABA law schools.  First full year out in solo practice I netted six figures.

So there are financial calculations there that might help mitigate extreme odds.

Re: taft law school
« Reply #86 on: August 13, 2015, 03:25:08 PM »
If that is the rate to take the bar exam in California that is great.

I think costs are a huge factor and DL schools are great for non-traditional students.

I think the typical right out of undergrad student is better served going to an ABA-School, but a 38 year old married professional with lets say two kids that lives in lets just say Boise Idaho with the nearest ABA School U of Idaho 500 miles away attending a non-aba school is not a realistic option. They could move their family, lose jobs and pay $100,000 while losing their income to attend an ABA school or if those costs are true put a few $1,000 down and continuing living their life. If it doesn't work out it doesn't work out.  In that scenario going to an ABA school makes no sense a DL school does.

If that student passes the California Bar then they might have to Petition the Idaho Bar to take the exam, but under those facts and having passed the Cali-Exam I think a court would allow it, but no guarantees. Again, those all considerations a non-aba grad would have to take into consideration.

I think the issue with a lot of bloggers etc is that they only see their scenario and for an unattached single person right out of undergrad they can realistically move anywhere and they have years to recoup their educational investment. So in that scenario yea attend an ABA school, but not everyone has that setup.

I am sure as a Taft grad you knew what you were into and a Federal Clerkship-Big Law gig was not going to happen and it doesn't happen for most ABA grads either.

I attended an ABA school, but by no means was it Harvard and I went in with realistic expectations and I was happy with my school and career up to this point. Different things work for different people.


Re: taft law school
« Reply #87 on: August 13, 2015, 04:43:29 PM »
I think the typical right out of undergrad student is better served going to an ABA-School, but a 38 year old married professional with lets say two kids that lives in lets just say Boise Idaho with the nearest ABA School U of Idaho 500 miles away attending a non-aba school is not a realistic option. They could move their family, lose jobs and pay $100,000 while losing their income to attend an ABA school or if those costs are true put a few $1,000 down and continuing living their life. If it doesn't work out it doesn't work out.  In that scenario going to an ABA school makes no sense a DL school does.

If that student passes the California Bar then they might have to Petition the Idaho Bar to take the exam, but under those facts and having passed the Cali-Exam I think a court would allow it, but no guarantees. Again, those all considerations a non-aba grad would have to take into consideration.

I think the issue with a lot of bloggers etc is that they only see their scenario and for an unattached single person right out of undergrad they can realistically move anywhere and they have years to recoup their educational investment. So in that scenario yea attend an ABA school, but not everyone has that setup.

So this Boise, ID graduate is going to go to Taft online, take the California bar, and roll the dice on a novel lawsuit that would ask the state bar of Idaho to overturn its rules? I don't think so.

The applicable rule, 207 (j) from the Idaho bar states, "The Supreme Court, upon application, may in its discretion vary the application or waive any provision of this rule where strict compliance will cause undue hardship to the Applicant." There is no way the Idaho Supreme Court is going to consider a non-approved law school to be relief from "strict" compliance or that your inability to attend an ABA-accredited law school will count as undue hardship.

Your argument fails both prongs of the actual rule, when both are required for your theory. I am concerned because this took all of 1 minute to google given what we as attorneys know, but I sincerely hope you do not encourage someone less familiar with bar admissions to think such a path is reasonable.

Finally, the fact that Boise, a regional legal market, is without an ABA-school or even a state-approved one is a rather unique situation.

Re: taft law school
« Reply #88 on: August 13, 2015, 05:00:04 PM »
I didn't say it was likely or even a good idea, but they could take the California Bar and attempt a lawsuit not an ideal situation, but for that persons situation if they really wanted to attend law school that would probably be a better route than attending an ABA school. Or before going to Taft that person could contact the Idaho Bar and what if any options they can reach and maybe one can't be reached.

TheA 6'1 Canadian winning the NBA MVP is highly unlikely, but it happened. However, I would not encourage any 6'1 Canadian to drop everything and pursue an NBA career, but people are responsible for their own lives and I am sure plenty of people told Steve Nash it couldn't be done and he can laugh in their face, but I wouldn't have bet on Steve Nash either nor will I bet on another 6'1 Canadian winning an NBA MVP.

As Legal Practioner's post said the point is to find alternatives.

Taft is unlikely to be anyone's dream school, but for the person in the Boise Scenario a DL school is probably their best option if they really want to be a lawyer and it may not work out. The logical thing for that person and probably better choice would be not to attend law school at all and why obtaining education at a younger age is the better route, but as I stated not everyone fits the cookie cutter mold of a 23-24 year old 1L right out of undergrad without any responsibility, but yea get straight A's in undergrad, 180 on the LSAT attend Harvard make partner by the time your 30 get married at 32 knock out a few kids and buy a few mansions and sail around the world. I recommend that route to anyone, but unfortunately it hardly ever happens, but I recommend that route over Taft.





Re: taft law school
« Reply #89 on: August 13, 2015, 05:07:20 PM »
"Finally, the fact that Boise, a regional legal market, is without an ABA-school or even a state-approved one is a rather unique situation."

Unique, but not alone.  Wichita, our largest city in Kansas, has no law school.  The nearest is two hours away in Topeka.  An attempt to start a school catering to working adults was attempted in the 2000's but it never gained ABA accreditation and subsequently failed.