New US News Rankings...

[bl825]

Meh.  Parts of it will survive once companies switch their attention from cost cutting to covering their asses. 

[TheDudeMan]

I decided to be civil as I think Remarq is actually a nice person and I probably shouldn't have given him crap so quick.  Maybe this will be the new kinder/gentler Dudeman  .

With regards to why Biglaw?  Well, for me it makes sense for 2-3 years.  I'm fortunate to be graduating with hardly any debt, which means that I can continue living the way I do now, bank most of my pay, then use it for a down payment on a nice home for my family.  At that point I'll come back to my federal position making GS-14 (possibly 15 by the time I graduate) and live comfortably.

For me, the money is just a means to an end.  That end being a nice home.  For others, it is useful to pay off loans. 

Plus, law firms really do spend a lot training new associates.  Miserable as the experience may be, it's still good experience.

[bl825]

I'm a big fan of kindler/gentler.

And I think that the whole law firms training new associates thing is a bit is exaggerated, though I'm sure it varies a lot based on the firm.

[Remarq]

I decided to be civil as I think Remarq is actually a nice person and I probably shouldn't have given him crap so quick.  Maybe this will be the new kinder/gentler Dudeman  .

With regards to why Biglaw?  Well, for me it makes sense for 2-3 years.  I'm fortunate to be graduating with hardly any debt, which means that I can continue living the way I do now, bank most of my pay, then use it for a down payment on a nice home for my family.  At that point I'll come back to my federal position making GS-14 (possibly 15 by the time I graduate) and live comfortably.

For me, the money is just a means to an end.  That end being a nice home.  For others, it is useful to pay off loans. 

Plus, law firms really do spend a lot training new associates.  Miserable as the experience may be, it's still good experience.

Are you working biglaw in DC or somewhere else?

[LawDog3]

I do think employers pay more attention than some people think, but their scrutinization must be put into context. As one poster has asked (in a nutshell) below, "What are the given employer's purposes?" That would matter a lot. Secondly, #40-#60 might be considered the same "batch" of schools...but I think we can all agree that there's a difference between the top-10 schools and, say #30-#40, or #40-#60...mostly in terms of perception.

And a batch of #40-#60 will generally be perceived as "better" than most TTT, Wayne State, Howard, Syracuse and some others notwithstanding. That's going to affect recruiting, if only from the standpoint of OCI. The top schools have more resources, networks and long-held reputations for producing outstanding lawyers. It's not that other schools do not or cannot match up in terms of "substance", I believe the opposite, but, unfortunately, perception is reality. I wish we didn't have to look at rankings, but we do, to a certain point. If Seattle University could provide good employment, I would love to just go there.

If Chapman was good at getting people to BigLaw, I would go there or pretty much any California school. Ditto Howard and the other HBCU's. I was offered a full scholarship to go the Howard and turned it down b/c, despite its decent access to BigLaw (for the top-15%), its networks and a student body that would make me more comfortable than any in the country, I turned it down. With the top schools on my menu, I still agonized over the decision. But the top schools can provide BigLaw access for the top 60% of their students; that's a world of difference. In the Black community, you are pretty much aiming for T14 or Howard (ok top-25 or Howard for some). You consider the other schools in between on a case-by-case basis.

If the schools were treated equally by employers, we could pick according to what we really like. I suspect that most student choices would be different, and that's why the rankings are sad. I suspect that this is where the misery of many lawyers really begins, going to the wrong law school.

[Manwithaplan]

I do think employers pay more attention than some people think, but their scrutinization must be put into context. As one poster has asked (in a nutshell) below, "What are the given employer's purposes?" That would matter a lot. Secondly, #40-#60 might be considered the same "batch" of schools...but I think we can all agree that there's a difference between the top-10 schools and, say #30-#40, or #40-#60...mostly in terms of perception.

And a batch of #40-#60 will generally be perceived as "better" than most TTT, Wayne State, Howard, Syracuse and some others notwithstanding. That's going to affect recruiting, if only from the standpoint of OCI. The top schools have more resources, networks and long-held reputations for producing outstanding lawyers. It's not that other schools do not or cannot match up in terms of "substance", I believe the opposite, but, unfortunately, perception is reality. I wish we didn't have to look at rankings, but we do, to a certain point. If Seattle University could provide good employment, I would love to just go there.

If Chapman was good at getting people to BigLaw, I would go there or pretty much any California school. Ditto Howard and the other HBCU's. I was offered a full scholarship to go the Howard and turned it down b/c, despite its decent access to BigLaw (for the top-15%), its networks and a student body that would make me more comfortable than any in the country, I turned it down. With the top schools on my menu, I still agonized over the decision. But the top schools can provide BigLaw access for the top 60% of their students; that's a world of difference. In the Black community, you are pretty much aiming for T14 or Howard (ok top-25 or Howard for some). You consider the other schools in between on a case-by-case basis.

If the schools were treated equally by employers, we could pick according to what we really like. I suspect that most student choices would be different, and that's why the rankings are sad. I suspect that this is where the misery of many lawyers really begins, going to the wrong law school.

As a 3L I can tell you to a moral certainty that outside the name brand schools, rankings mean nothing.  It is all regional reputation.  Being in a number 35 school in Illinois will not help you get a job in southern California if  that IL student has the same grades as a USD or Loyola student. Going to Loyola will not help you get a job in Georgia, all things being equal, even if Loyola is ranked higher than whatever school is there.

What is going to help you get a job is the strength of your school's alumni network in your region, not an arbitrary ranking.  That being said, a high ranking can only be a positive thing for a school because it draws attention to the school and potentially students with higher numbers.  Outside of that though, the rankings will do nothing.

[ihatelawscholah1L]

thedudeman i'm glade you'll admit it when you're wrong. for a second i thought you were one of those people in law school who thinks you're always right and thinks they're smarter than everybody else.  i f-ing hate those people.

congrats on getting the biglaw job, i would definitely not mind getting a similar job for a couple of years to pay off debt. 

i hate finals. @#!*

[TheDudeMan]

I'll admit I was wrong in terms of GW dropping to 28, but GW is still better than most of those schools that moved ahead of it.  Anyone in law school and the legal community knows that it's a fact that IUB isn't even close to GW in terms of job placement and the same can be said for Iowa, etc....

Come next year, GW will simply adjust admissions to work within the new US News methodology and things will magically go back to how they once were.  In the long-run, I honestly think that the change will hurt US News because the more topsy-turvy the rankings become from year-to-year, the less people are going to give them weight.

[vercingetorix]

I'll admit I was wrong in terms of GW dropping to 28, but GW is still better than most of those schools that moved ahead of it.  Anyone in law school and the legal community knows that it's a fact that IUB isn't even close to GW in terms of job placement and the same can be said for Iowa, etc....

Come next year, GW will simply adjust admissions to work within the new US News methodology and things will magically go back to how they once were.  In the long-run, I honestly think that the change will hurt US News because the more topsy-turvy the rankings become from year-to-year, the less people are going to give them weight.

i'm not sure what this means. Iowa has a sterling reputation. you can make fun of the locale (and i imagine students there have a sense of humor about this) but it is an incredible school that has tremendous respect, particularly in academic circles, so no, i don't agree with this assessment. IA has a pretty high placement rate for graduates. if you are talking vault 100, i reiterate my point that yours is actually the shallow assessment of school value. as for IUB, i have no clue so i have no comment. by the way i have no dog in the fight, i go to UW Wisconsin and we fell a couple points....again. oh and i'm staying in WI, in Madison actually, working at a firm here making 125k (starting). that is actually a great salary because the cost of living around here is much lower than, say Chicago. and because i am going to school for free (veteran's preference) UW is simply the best school for me. i wouldn't have gone to Harvard if they had accepted me (i didn't even bother, not in their range...not even close) because it didn't make sense. i wanted to live in WI, and the best school to attend when everything was factored in, was UW. full stop. see? a compelling case for why those arguments about placement (again, where? UW places most of its students as well, including clerkships with SCOTUS) and ranking (again, within reason, a non-T14 school, but still T1 school in the region you want to live is far more significant than being 18th or 40th) are shallow and stupid. the arguments dude, not you.

[wyatth]

shocked to see loyola LA down to 71! and USD up to 61!
pepper consistent at 55, santa clara consistent at 85.. UC Hastings still at 39.
can't wait to see how UC Irvine ranks.