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gryphonette

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Canadian General Degree and US Schools?
« on: February 26, 2009, 02:27:02 PM »
I was wondering if anyone has experience with applying to US schools with a general (3 year) undergrad degree. Do they accept the general degree, or does it have to be an Honours degree so equivalent to a 4 year U.S undergrad degree?

Thannks  :)

bonz68

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Re: Canadian General Degree and US Schools?
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2009, 04:22:28 PM »
The majority of U.S. schools require you to have a 4 year bachelor degree before you enroll in Law School and all that I've seen accept any 4 year undergraduate degree, so no need for an honors degree.

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Re: Canadian General Degree and US Schools?
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2009, 11:59:05 PM »
The majority of U.S. schools require you to have a 4 year bachelor degree before you enroll in Law School and all that I've seen accept any 4 year undergraduate degree, so no need for an honors degree.

A 4 year undergraduate degree is an honours degree.

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Re: Canadian General Degree and US Schools?
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2009, 12:03:46 AM »
I was wondering if anyone has experience with applying to US schools with a general (3 year) undergrad degree. Do they accept the general degree, or does it have to be an Honours degree so equivalent to a 4 year U.S undergrad degree?

Thannks  :)

Most law schools require a minimum of 2 years of undergraduate study before applying. This means that there are at least some people who get in without having completed their undergraduate work.

However, law schools do tend to give preference to people who have completed their BA. Also, just as graduate work might help an applicant when compared to those applicants with only undergraduate degrees, I would suggest that in the same vein that an applicant holding an HBA will be more impressive than one with a general BA.

In any case, assuming that a 3 year degree has been conferred to you, then I would imagine that it really doesn't matter. You just need to do very well on the LSAT and have an excellent application (personal statement, references, etc).


Good luck.

mark_darcy

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Re: Canadian General Degree and US Schools?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2009, 12:44:30 PM »
The majority of U.S. schools require you to have a 4 year bachelor degree before you enroll in Law School and all that I've seen accept any 4 year undergraduate degree, so no need for an honors degree.

A 4 year undergraduate degree is an honours degree.

false - I have a four year degree that is not an honours degree.

Also - the poster was asking about US schools.  A law degree in the US, unlike most law degrees in Canada, is a graduate degree.  This means that the student must already hold a degree to get in.  No getting in after two years without a degree.  I'm pretty sure, as well, that the US does not recognize the three year degree as equivalent to a four year degree.  I have met no one at school in the US who got in after a three year degree (unless they fast-tracked, of course).  Obviously this is anecdotal evidence, and the original poster should look into it for more precise information.

Finally, though schools in the US might require a four year degree, this doesn't mean it needs to be an honours degree.  I'm in T-3 without one.

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Re: Canadian General Degree and US Schools?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2009, 02:15:01 PM »
The majority of U.S. schools require you to have a 4 year bachelor degree before you enroll in Law School and all that I've seen accept any 4 year undergraduate degree, so no need for an honors degree.

A 4 year undergraduate degree is an honours degree.

false - I have a four year degree that is not an honours degree.

The said poster is also referring to a Canadian undergraduate degree. All four year degrees is Canada are honours degrees. At least in the last 15 years. There is no such thing as a four year general degree in Canada - unless of course you took an extra year to complete the requirements for a general degree.

Then again, the same rules need not apply to the US, and I stand corrected in your case.

Also - the poster was asking about US schools.  A law degree in the US, unlike most law degrees in Canada, is a graduate degree. 

Wrong - the majority of Canadian schools have switched to the JD designation. Anyway, despite the technically "Bachelor" title (simply referring to the first entry "law degree") of the LLB it has still long been considered a second entry degre, the equivalent of a JD, and therefore a graduate degree. You would still be hard pressed to get accepted to a Canadian law school that still confers the LLB without some completed first degree. This option is generally designated for exceptional undergrads, much like direct-entry PhD programs.

The primary reason that Canadian law schools have been switching to the JD designation is to dispel this common misconception.

This means that the student must already hold a degree to get in.  No getting in after two years without a degree.  I'm pretty sure, as well, that the US does not recognize the three year degree as equivalent to a four year degree.  I have met no one at school in the US who got in after a three year degree (unless they fast-tracked, of course).  Obviously this is anecdotal evidence, and the original poster should look into it for more precise information.

Finally, though schools in the US might require a four year degree, this doesn't mean it needs to be an honours degree.  I'm in T-3 without one.

You might be right about this, I'm not too familiar with the admission requirments of most US law schools. I was speaking mostly from a Canadian law school perspective.

nerfco

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Re: Canadian General Degree and US Schools?
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2009, 09:31:17 PM »
The said poster is also referring to a Canadian undergraduate degree. All four year degrees is Canada are honours degrees. At least in the last 15 years. There is no such thing as a four year general degree in Canada - unless of course you took an extra year to complete the requirements for a general degree.

This is not true. I have a four-year bachelors degree from a Canadian university, and it is not an honours degree. This may vary by province (I am not in Ontario).

Also, merely renaming the LLB to a JD does not change the degree to a graduate degree. This would be related to whether the law school requires the entering student to have a prior degree, not the name given to the degree the law school confers. In any case, none of this matters for the question, given that the OP was not about Canadian law schools.

mark_darcy

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Re: Canadian General Degree and US Schools?
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2009, 01:48:03 PM »
The majority of U.S. schools require you to have a 4 year bachelor degree before you enroll in Law School and all that I've seen accept any 4 year undergraduate degree, so no need for an honors degree.

A 4 year undergraduate degree is an honours degree.

false - I have a four year degree that is not an honours degree.

The said poster is also referring to a Canadian undergraduate degree. All four year degrees is Canada are honours degrees. At least in the last 15 years. There is no such thing as a four year general degree in Canada - unless of course you took an extra year to complete the requirements for a general degree.

Then again, the same rules need not apply to the US, and I stand corrected in your case.

Also - the poster was asking about US schools.  A law degree in the US, unlike most law degrees in Canada, is a graduate degree. 

Wrong - the majority of Canadian schools have switched to the JD designation. Anyway, despite the technically "Bachelor" title (simply referring to the first entry "law degree") of the LLB it has still long been considered a second entry degre, the equivalent of a JD, and therefore a graduate degree. You would still be hard pressed to get accepted to a Canadian law school that still confers the LLB without some completed first degree. This option is generally designated for exceptional undergrads, much like direct-entry PhD programs.

The primary reason that Canadian law schools have been switching to the JD designation is to dispel this common misconception.

This means that the student must already hold a degree to get in.  No getting in after two years without a degree.  I'm pretty sure, as well, that the US does not recognize the three year degree as equivalent to a four year degree.  I have met no one at school in the US who got in after a three year degree (unless they fast-tracked, of course).  Obviously this is anecdotal evidence, and the original poster should look into it for more precise information.

Finally, though schools in the US might require a four year degree, this doesn't mean it needs to be an honours degree.  I'm in T-3 without one.

You might be right about this, I'm not too familiar with the admission requirments of most US law schools. I was speaking mostly from a Canadian law school perspective.

Are you a troll? Because I'm starting to think you are.

To the OP - I, like the poster above me, have a 4 year degree, from a top Canadian School, that is NOT an honours degree.  I have no honours classification, as I did not take the required courses to get an honours degree.

Secondly, though Canadian schools may indeed use the JD degree, that doesn't mean its a second degree.  The fact that many, if not all, of the schools let in people without any undergraduate degree shows this.  In the US, you cannot get into law school without first having completed a degree, no matter how brilliant you are.

Finally, the LLB/JD is not like direct entry PhD programs.  They require a first degree as well.  QED.

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Re: Canadian General Degree and US Schools?
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2009, 03:09:47 PM »
Are you a troll? Because I'm starting to think you are.

To the OP - I, like the poster above me, have a 4 year degree, from a top Canadian School, that is NOT an honours degree.  I have no honours classification, as I did not take the required courses to get an honours degree.

Secondly, though Canadian schools may indeed use the JD degree, that doesn't mean its a second degree.  The fact that many, if not all, of the schools let in people without any undergraduate degree shows this.  In the US, you cannot get into law school without first having completed a degree, no matter how brilliant you are.


http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/legalpost/archive/2008/02/13/hasselback-the-merits-of-jd-over-llb.aspx

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1. Even though law is almost always a graduate-level program, we LL.B. candidates were forced to suffer the indignity of parking only in the undergraduate parking lots. I've long blamed this injustice on our program being styled as a Bachelor-level degree. Elevating the degree to a more senior-sounding "doctorate" could correct this outrage by opening up graduate lots to undergraduate students.


http://osgoode.yorku.ca/media2.nsf/58912001c091cdc8852569300055bbf9/6fb85805a130278385257401006bbab2!OpenDocument

http://www.law.utoronto.ca/alumni_frnds_content.asp?itemPath=4/18/6/0/0&contentId=533&cType=webpages

Quote
What is the J.D. degree at the University of Toronto?

J.D. stands for Juris Doctor.  It is the degree designation the University of Toronto uses for its law degree program.  Most other Canadian law schools use the degree designation LL.B., which stands for Bachelor of Laws. Dated: Because with recent proposals for Dal, Windsor and other schools most will soon have switched to the JD designation.

The J.D. degree is a law degree designation that is typically granted to students who receive a legal education after they have completed an undergraduate degree.  On the other hand, the LL.B. is typically granted after completion of a legal education that is obtained following graduation from high school, which is the case in virtually all other Commonwealth jurisdictions.  The J.D. degree designation is intended to bring the University of Toronto law school up to the growing international standards for second-degree law programs.

The University of Toronto feels that the J.D. degree designation more accurately reflects the educational accomplishments of the vast majority of the Faculty's graduates who enter with at least one university degree (approximately 20% now enter our law school with graduate degrees as well).  In addition, the J.D. is viewed as providing our graduates with a more competitive degree designation.  This is particularly important for the increasing numbers of U of T students and graduates who choose to work or study outside Canada.


http://www.canadianlawyermag.com/Dal-debates-JD-designation.html

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Dalhousie law student David Gardos supports a change to the JD. Part of the reason, he says, is the recognition a JD provides for having had prior undergraduate work.

“My reasons supporting a change in degree designation from an LLB to JD primarily stem from a desire to recognize that a law degree in Canada is not a bachelor degree like it is in other parts of the world,” says Gardos, “namely the U.K. and parts of Europe where students enter law school after their final year of high school.”

From the UBC and UofT FAQs, which are largely applicable to all Canadian law schools:

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Do I have to have a four year undergraduate degree prior to applying to law school?

A To be considered for admission applicants must have successfully completed three years (minimum 90 credits) of an approved course of studies leading to an undergraduate degree at an approved University no later than the end of April in the year of entry. However, prospective applicants should be aware that almost all of our students have completed a four year degree. In recent years approximately five applicants a year have been admitted without a four-year undergraduate degree.

Quote
How many years of an undergraduate program do I need in order to apply to the U of T Faculty of Law?

Applicants must have successfully completed THREE years of an approved course leading to a degree at a recognized university (or equivalent), no later than the end of May in the year of entry. However, prospective applicants should be aware that almost all of our students have completed a four-year degree. In recent years, approximately five applicants a year have been admitted without a four-year undergraduate degree.

Moreover, UofT, Osgoode, McGill and UBC (and others) have made a point of placing their law faculties under the graduate sections of their websites.

Bottom line, 99% of successful applicants have a prior HBA or BA. A Canadian law degree is also largely considered a second entry degree - unlike other commonwealth nations that have retained the LLB designation. Need I find more links?

QED: STFU.

Finally, the LLB/JD is not like direct entry PhD programs.  They require a first degree as well.  QED.

Yes, direct-entry PhD programs require a prior undergraduate degree. Exactly like JD for the said 99% of applicants.

nerfco

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Re: Canadian General Degree and US Schools?
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2009, 07:09:19 PM »
Wrong - the majority of Canadian schools have switched to the JD designation.

The following Canadian schools offer a JD, per LSAC's website:
UBC, UofT, York, Queen's, U of Western Ontario

The following Canadian schools still offer a LLB:
UofA, UCalgary, Dalhousie, Manitoba, McGill, U.New Brunswick, U.Ottawa, U.Sask, UVic, UWindsor

Now, my math is rusty, by 5/15 is a pretty shaky majority, no?

The fact that many, if not all, of the schools let in people without any undergraduate degree shows this.
"In recent years, approximately five applicants a year have been admitted without a four-year undergraduate degree."

You sure proved him wrong!