Quote from: Jessica Rabbit on February 21, 2009, 01:12:44 PMQuote from: Susan B. Anthony on February 20, 2009, 12:05:05 PMI mean, I did it just this morning with my high schoolers (who are supposed to call me Ms. Cadysson, but I couldn't take it, so they call me by my first name).Being called "girl" by a peer is offensive, but getting called by your first name by minors is not? Doesn't being called "Ms." recognize your adulthood in the same way being called a "woman" does?Yes; noIf I didn't invite them to call me by my first name, it would be a problem - but I did (I'm also not their regular teacher - I go in once a week to teach a class). I'm really not comfortable with a lot of the pedagogical trappings of the classroom. Almost all of my undergrad professors asked us to call them by their first names, in large part because they understood class to not just be about them imparting wisdom, but about all of us having a conversation and learning from each other. And that's how I understand my particular role. So my students calling me by my first name is about a relationship I've established with them, the parameters of which I've defined.
Quote from: Susan B. Anthony on February 20, 2009, 12:05:05 PMI mean, I did it just this morning with my high schoolers (who are supposed to call me Ms. Cadysson, but I couldn't take it, so they call me by my first name).Being called "girl" by a peer is offensive, but getting called by your first name by minors is not? Doesn't being called "Ms." recognize your adulthood in the same way being called a "woman" does?
I mean, I did it just this morning with my high schoolers (who are supposed to call me Ms. Cadysson, but I couldn't take it, so they call me by my first name).
I struggle with the Mr./Ms. thing. I find it unnecessary and uncomfortable when people refer to me very formally. However, as most of you know, I have a job where teach students, some of them older than me and all of them in my age vicinity. I do feel that maybe it's important to have a level of formality so they don't think I'm their buddy necessarily... When the children are younger or if you're middle-aged, I feel that you have more leeway since none of pupils could mistake you for their peer. I'm sort of conflicted.
That's fair. I still find it odd to be uncomfortable with "girl" yet comfortable with kids calling you by your first name as if you were one of them.
Cady was right.
Alright....1) Cady, are there really that many people calling you any sort of "girl" "woman" type words. I can see using it when talking to a 3rd party, "I met this girl at the bar" or "I met this woman at the bar" but I can't imagine calling someone a girl or woman to her face. The 3rd party stuff is relevant too, but I'm just curious under what circumstances someone has called you either a "girl" or "woman" to your face.2) Gretchen - I know you're just joking with the "I guess you're a better person than me" stuff, but lets be clear - Cady is not "right" or "wrong" here - this is her opinion. She doesn't speak for all people, all women, or even all feminists. Cady, you said something earlier that when you're talking about a 19/20 year old, you err on the side of caution/respect. That's fine that in your opinion it's disrespectful - but it's not a fact that it's more respectful to call a 20 year old a "woman." I think almost all 19/20 year olds would consider themselves "girls" and would find it at the very least weird if someone referred to them as a "woman." And like I said, my 27 year old gf would find "woman" a little weirder than "girl" - same with Gretchen. I imagine some would even find it offensive. When I was growing up my friend's mom got offended when we called her "Mrs. X" instead of her first name, and my mom got offended when my friends called her by her first name instead of "Mrs. Bosco." So anyway, my point is just that you're making normative judgments - not stating facts. I know you know this, and it's cumbersome to say "I think" before every post, but jsia.3) I think sheltron and gretchen alluded to this point earlier. "Girl" has a meaning to most people. Let's say for most people, they would refer to anyone under 25 as girl, over 25 as woman. I don't really get why you make the leap that calling a 19 year old a "girl" means you're infantilizing her, comparing her to a 6 year old, etc. When you refer to a 19 year old as a "woman", are you saying she's the same as a 70 year old woman? If "girl" means someone under 25, it means someone under 25, not someone who is 6. Is it offensive to call an 11 year old a girl because you're saying she's the same as a 3 year old? Really, your argument has to be that you want to change the meaning of "girl" to something like 17 and under. Otherwise I don't really follow you. If most people think the term "girl" includes 19 year olds, how exactly is it offensive to call a 19 year old a "girl?"
I'd love to join this LGBT club. It's the Legos, Gobots, Barbies, and other Toys group, right? I'll show up with an armful of toys.
Gotcha. I'm with you here. I think I just misinterpreted what we were talking about earlier in the thread.
I actually wasn't chastising you, that paragraph was mostly in response to Gretchen. Your tone in this thread seems like "here's what people need to do, and if they don't they're either being disrespectful or lazy. This might be hard at first, but don't worry you'll get used to doing things the 'right' way" To me it's very debatable whether calling a 19 year old a "girl" is disrespectful, and it seemed like some people were just going along with you on that. Like I said, I think Gretchen was probably joking with "You're probably just a better person than me" but I just wanted to make it clear that a lot of people would disagree with you on those points. And it had absolutely nothing to do with your gender - I've noticed recently that almost all of my posts start off with "in my experience....this is just my opinion....I can only speak for UChicago, etc." I probably preface and qualify way too much, and I'm trying to break the habit too. Really, that paragraph was just meant to point out that you're making a lot of claims that are debatable, and some people seem to be taking them as fact. But sorry for the "I know you know" line - I switched back and forth there between talking to you and talking to others in that paragraph, and I didn't want to make it seem like I just assumed that you thought you were stating fact. If that makes sense.
Yeah, I get what you're saying. I'd probably just repeat my #3 from before. I think where we disagree is about whether it's a "problem" and whether it's a habit that we should try to break. If the meaning of "girl" just means under 25, it's just a word that means a thing. If someone refers to a 45 year old as a girl, I'm with you that it's wrong. And if someone refers to a 10 year old as a "woman" I also think that's wrong. But to me referring to a 19 year old as a girl is just referring to her as someone who meets most people's definition of "girl" - we might disagree on where the line is drawn, but I think if I was talking to a friend and said "this woman I met at the store" and then my friend later found out I was talking about a 19 year old, he'd be surprised. I think most people would draw the line at an older age than you or the poster who said 16. I think you just want to change the definition of "girl," which maybe isn't a bad idea - but as long as it has this definition (and we might disagree on what the actual definition is) I don't see how it's disrespectful to use a word to describe someone when they meet the definition of that word. I think if you take your argument to its conclusion, it would have to be that you want to get rid of all terms like baby, child, etc. Maybe I'm missing something though.
Good post SBA, I totally get what you're saying. I just have one contextual example that might help me understand better.It seems like you're okay with the age flexibility of "girl," so if someone was at work, for example in a generic office, and they asked someone if "they've met the new girl."How does this usage strike you?
That's cool how you referenced a case.
I'm so far from the end of my tether right now that I reckon I could knit myself some socks with the slack.