Law School Discussion

Nine Years of Discussion
;

Author Topic: Kent PT or other Chicago schools Full Time  (Read 3402 times)

contrarian

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 305
    • View Profile
Re: Kent PT or other Chicago schools Full Time
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2009, 02:05:28 AM »
Even as a PT option, Kent is widely considered much better than those other schools. And it's not even a knock on the others; it's just that Kent is close to UIUC in terms of prestige...not quite there, but well-respected. And it is ranked much higher than its USNWR ranking in almost every other poll (about top-30!)

It shouldn't even be a hard choice. Take Kent PT. You can transfer to FT after a year, if that's the way you want to go. Plus, more and more students are going BigLaw from Kent if that's your goal. More top Chicago firms employ kent grads than those from any other school, including U-Chicago or NU. This is not to say Kent is better than NU or Chicago, because those grads tend to leave Illinois at a higher rate. But with so many Kent grads at the firms, the networks will be there. It's a great education: tops in IP and writing.


Sorry for using you as a punching bag but...

I'm sick of seeing schools recommended on the sole basis of their rankings.  It's an appeal to authority, which is an inherently flawed ranking to begin with.  50-75% (depending on your P.O.V.) is based on the  quality of the entering class and the opinion of the school's graduates, and the best students go to the highest ranked schools because the highest paying jobs cherry pick from those schools because they get the best students... it's a self-fulfilling circle jerk and the rankings have very very little to say about the acqual quality of the schools themselves.  Yale could physically beat it's students on a regular basis but as long as the 180 LSATs with 4.0 GPAs go there to get the 150k/yr jobs on graduation it'll get ranked highly by the USNWR.

I'd like to see more substance to these recommendations.  You're lawyers (or wanna-be lawyers for Christ sakes).  Back it up with something more quantifiable. Kent is highly regarded for IP, so is Depaul and John Marshall.  For Kent being so highly regarded in IP/IT law, their website is rather anemic in playing this up.  Whereas at least DePaul has a fairly impressive entry with their CIPLIT program and JMLS puts in an effort with their CITPL program. One thing I've noticed is that Kent seems to be far more into the Bio- area of IP law, and focused more on technology in IP law.  Whereas DePaul is more into IP law regarding creative works and information technology issues, whereas JMLS is more focused (and judging by their past two years of class offerings) much more in information technology issues.  I see the OP has a biotech background so that would be a strong reasoning for me to look into Kent over the other schools.

I have acceptances to the four Chicago part-time schools, with varying scholarships.  My initial reaction to Kent was one of joy.  But, I'm finding it hard to justify, in my position as a non-trad, to take on additional 50k debt & interest over and above the base amount of debt I'd take on to cover that which I won't pay out of pocket during the year, when all I get is prestige.  Especially since I am interested more in IT law than IP law, and privacy issues and Cybercrime.  I'm not convinced the school offers me anything more than a designer-brand law degree, when I can pass the bar and practice law and even get a more focused education in my desired area of specialty for a far more reasonable cost.  And frankly, looking at the employment prospects of the four schools, Kent doesn't seem to offer a significant enough bonus.  Perhaps if I were 21, an additional expectation of a 10-15 thousand a year would be worth while over the course of a career, but that is also going to largely even out after 5-10 years and salary will become largely dependent on skill and ability than school. 

Sadly though I am also caught up in the whole rankings game.  I'm having a tough tough time convincing myself that these lower ranked schools really are the better solution for me, when I too want to wear that designer-label on my diploma.


LawDog3

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 690
    • View Profile
Re: Kent PT or other Chicago schools Full Time
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2009, 03:29:57 PM »
Even as a PT option, Kent is widely considered much better than those other schools. And it's not even a knock on the others; it's just that Kent is close to UIUC in terms of prestige...not quite there, but well-respected. And it is ranked much higher than its USNWR ranking in almost every other poll (about top-30!)

It shouldn't even be a hard choice. Take Kent PT. You can transfer to FT after a year, if that's the way you want to go. Plus, more and more students are going BigLaw from Kent if that's your goal. More top Chicago firms employ kent grads than those from any other school, including U-Chicago or NU. This is not to say Kent is better than NU or Chicago, because those grads tend to leave Illinois at a higher rate. But with so many Kent grads at the firms, the networks will be there. It's a great education: tops in IP and writing.


Sorry for using you as a punching bag but...

I'm sick of seeing schools recommended on the sole basis of their rankings.  It's an appeal to authority, which is an inherently flawed ranking to begin with.  50-75% (depending on your P.O.V.) is based on the  quality of the entering class and the opinion of the school's graduates, and the best students go to the highest ranked schools because the highest paying jobs cherry pick from those schools because they get the best students... it's a self-fulfilling circle jerk and the rankings have very very little to say about the acqual quality of the schools themselves.  Yale could physically beat it's students on a regular basis but as long as the 180 LSATs with 4.0 GPAs go there to get the 150k/yr jobs on graduation it'll get ranked highly by the USNWR.

I'd like to see more substance to these recommendations.  You're lawyers (or wanna-be lawyers for Christ sakes).  Back it up with something more quantifiable. Kent is highly regarded for IP, so is Depaul and John Marshall.  For Kent being so highly regarded in IP/IT law, their website is rather anemic in playing this up.  Whereas at least DePaul has a fairly impressive entry with their CIPLIT program and JMLS puts in an effort with their CITPL program. One thing I've noticed is that Kent seems to be far more into the Bio- area of IP law, and focused more on technology in IP law.  Whereas DePaul is more into IP law regarding creative works and information technology issues, whereas JMLS is more focused (and judging by their past two years of class offerings) much more in information technology issues.  I see the OP has a biotech background so that would be a strong reasoning for me to look into Kent over the other schools.

I have acceptances to the four Chicago part-time schools, with varying scholarships.  My initial reaction to Kent was one of joy.  But, I'm finding it hard to justify, in my position as a non-trad, to take on additional 50k debt & interest over and above the base amount of debt I'd take on to cover that which I won't pay out of pocket during the year, when all I get is prestige.  Especially since I am interested more in IT law than IP law, and privacy issues and Cybercrime.  I'm not convinced the school offers me anything more than a designer-brand law degree, when I can pass the bar and practice law and even get a more focused education in my desired area of specialty for a far more reasonable cost.  And frankly, looking at the employment prospects of the four schools, Kent doesn't seem to offer a significant enough bonus.  Perhaps if I were 21, an additional expectation of a 10-15 thousand a year would be worth while over the course of a career, but that is also going to largely even out after 5-10 years and salary will become largely dependent on skill and ability than school. 

Sadly though I am also caught up in the whole rankings game.  I'm having a tough tough time convincing myself that these lower ranked schools really are the better solution for me, when I too want to wear that designer-label on my diploma.



With me it's not all about rankings. I touted the alternative rankings BECAUSE I do believe that most of them have merit, even though everybody listens to USNWR. Notice that I mention other rankings. Also, I cited the programs (writing, IP) at KentLaw. I have had some experience with all of the schools the OP mentioned, and Kent does have more to offer: the facilities are better, better/more accomplished faculty, the school is more plugged in career wise (Sidley Austin, alone, has four partners from KentLaw), and Kent does produce several transfers to the consensus top-20 schools every year. It's just more highly regarded than those others.

That said, I wouldn't sneeze at Loyola or DePaul, either. They're both great schools. I think you read more into what I was saying than what i actually meant. 

ohioan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: Kent PT or other Chicago schools Full Time
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2009, 03:39:08 PM »
Lemme do two things here.  First, answer the question above, and then ask another question myself.

DePaul is in Lincoln Park...the best place to live is Lincoln Park.  I dont know how familiar you are with Chicago.  Lincoln Park is on the north side.  DePaul is on the north side, Kent is in the West Loop by the Sears Tower and train stations, NW is in the loop, U-Chicago is on the south side, and Loyola is on Michigan Avenue, where the water tower is and all the expensive shops.

Theyre all about 20 mins from each other...that is, if you live in lincoln park, youd be 2 mins from depaul, but 20 mins fromeverything else.  Ditto if you lived in the loop...you could commute by bike to NW or maybe Kent, but would be 20 mins to DePaul and Loyola.  Therefore you need to narrow down where you want to to gofirst id say.  I believe the orange line runs right by the Sears Tower, giving access to Kent.  I cant think of what runs right above DePaul.  There is crime everywhere in the city.  Theres noise everywhere in the city.  Cant really say a quiet and safe place.


For my question...let me play devils advocate.  I heard that both a) Kent grads go to big firms in Chi, and b) that its cause its ranked higher than DePaul and Loyola.  How do you factor this into regional schools that are ranked higher?  E.G.  Tennessee.  Theyre ranked 50, and I imagine they just feed into Nashville and maybe Cincinatti. But at the same time, it is ranked higher than Kent.  How do you determine this?   How are you "hired" out of law school?  Is it mostly recruiters coming to your school, cause if thats the case i can see why a school like Tenn doesnt equal big jobs in NY, Chi, or LA.  I can see why going to somehwere like Kent or Houston is good though.  So, just wondering about that.

Thanks guys.


A comment about the areas mentioned, DePaul law is in the loop, as is Kent and Loyola. Lincoln park campus for DePaul is their main campus, but the law school is in the loop. As for me, I think the key factor in my decision is going to be 1) where are the biotech IP firms, 2) where do they hire from. I anticipate the answers to be 1 - located in NY, DC, MA and other than t15 schools, they hire locally. Though acceptances, and scholarships from Hofstra adn New York Law School make NY access better than DePaul and Loyola, I am not sure that the level of access those two schools provide is worth it. I think Penn St. could be a good option, but I am not seeing much representation of their graduates as I look at IP firms in NY, DC. So I think the idea of developing a career in Chicago first might be the most appropriate.

LawDog3

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 690
    • View Profile
Re: Kent PT or other Chicago schools Full Time
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2009, 09:40:35 PM »
Lemme do two things here.  First, answer the question above, and then ask another question myself.

DePaul is in Lincoln Park...the best place to live is Lincoln Park.  I dont know how familiar you are with Chicago.  Lincoln Park is on the north side.  DePaul is on the north side, Kent is in the West Loop by the Sears Tower and train stations, NW is in the loop, U-Chicago is on the south side, and Loyola is on Michigan Avenue, where the water tower is and all the expensive shops.

Theyre all about 20 mins from each other...that is, if you live in lincoln park, youd be 2 mins from depaul, but 20 mins fromeverything else.  Ditto if you lived in the loop...you could commute by bike to NW or maybe Kent, but would be 20 mins to DePaul and Loyola.  Therefore you need to narrow down where you want to to gofirst id say.  I believe the orange line runs right by the Sears Tower, giving access to Kent.  I cant think of what runs right above DePaul.  There is crime everywhere in the city.  Theres noise everywhere in the city.  Cant really say a quiet and safe place.


For my question...let me play devils advocate.  I heard that both a) Kent grads go to big firms in Chi, and b) that its cause its ranked higher than DePaul and Loyola.  How do you factor this into regional schools that are ranked higher?  E.G.  Tennessee.  Theyre ranked 50, and I imagine they just feed into Nashville and maybe Cincinatti. But at the same time, it is ranked higher than Kent.  How do you determine this?   How are you "hired" out of law school?  Is it mostly recruiters coming to your school, cause if thats the case i can see why a school like Tenn doesnt equal big jobs in NY, Chi, or LA.  I can see why going to somehwere like Kent or Houston is good though.  So, just wondering about that.

Thanks guys.


A comment about the areas mentioned, DePaul law is in the loop, as is Kent and Loyola. Lincoln park campus for DePaul is their main campus, but the law school is in the loop. As for me, I think the key factor in my decision is going to be 1) where are the biotech IP firms, 2) where do they hire from. I anticipate the answers to be 1 - located in NY, DC, MA and other than t15 schools, they hire locally. Though acceptances, and scholarships from Hofstra adn New York Law School make NY access better than DePaul and Loyola, I am not sure that the level of access those two schools provide is worth it. I think Penn St. could be a good option, but I am not seeing much representation of their graduates as I look at IP firms in NY, DC. So I think the idea of developing a career in Chicago first might be the most appropriate.
[/b]

And with that knowledge in mind, Chicago-Kent is the very best option. Kent is sending more and more grads to NY. If we were speaking strictly on the IP tip, I'd advise you to choose Kent over ANY school in the Midwest...bar none! Unfortunately, there's more to consider. But, given the OP's statements, Kent is still the right choice.

LawDog3

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 690
    • View Profile
Re: Kent PT or other Chicago schools Full Time
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2009, 10:18:27 PM »
For the record, I agree that rankings should not be the deciding factor in decisions. And there are several second-tier schools I would attend over so-called first-tier ones. But you have to understand, the rankings of schools largely impact students' ability to get into biglaw...and most law students, whether they admit it or not, want to go BigLaw, because they accumulate massive debt. Besides, they know that it's easier to build networks in BigLaw and work your way "down" (to, say a boutique firm or a localized specialty) or "laterally" (to, say...corporate in-house) rather than start at a boutique and decide you want to do IP law.

BigLaw is driving this whole thing, and I would not be surprized if USNWR was getting kickbacks for their rankings. The value of a law degree is artificially inflated on one end, and artificially depressed on the other, so i agree with contrarian on that.

Some really good second and third tier schools (according to my research

Top-10 (I would choose these over many first-tiers)

Chicago-Kent (IP Law and writing programs best in midwest)
Cardozo (many say it's top-25)
Brooklyn (Can go BigLaw easily out of Brook)
Loyola-L.A. (a top gun in Entertainment Law)
Miami (#18 in Lawdragon, top-40ish in other polls, info supports that)
Case Western (was listed as consensus Tier-1)
San Diego (better than UC Hastings and Davis, some say)
Suffolk (tier-3? I don't think so!)
Howard (career prospects and teaching quality are tier-1!)
Temple (writing program one of the best, getting better all around)

Tennessee
Houston
Pepperdine
Northeastern
Cincinnati (buzz is growing!)
Syracuse
Villanova
Seton Hall
Pittsburgh
Georgia State
DePaul
Loyola-Chicago
Rutgers (Both)
St. John's
Marquette
Denver
Santa Clara
Pacific
Albany
Chapman
Cleveland State
Wayne State
Akron
Vermont
Hofstra
San Francisco
NYLS
Seattle-U (superior education, lousy employment prospects - much too concentrated in Seattle)



Overrated Tier-1 Schools (according to some)

UConn
BYU
Arizona
Colorado
George Mason
William & Mary
Georgia
Alabama
Iowa
IU-Bloomington
SMU
Maryland

Rankings are not everything.
 

Remarq

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 254
    • View Profile
Re: Kent PT or other Chicago schools Full Time
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2009, 10:22:43 PM »
For the record, I agree that rankings should not be the deciding factor in decisions. And there are several second-tier schools I would attend over so-called first-tier ones. But you have to understand, the rankings of schools largely impact students' ability to get into biglaw...and most law students, whether they admit it or not, want to go BigLaw, because they accumulate massive debt. Besides, they know that it's easier to build networks in BigLaw and work your way "down" (to, say a boutique firm or a localized specialty) or "laterally" (to, say...corporate in-house) rather than start at a boutique and decide you want to do IP law.

BigLaw is driving this whole thing, and I would not be surprized if USNWR was getting kickbacks for their rankings. The value of a law degree is artificially inflated on one end, and artificially depressed on the other, so i agree with contrarian on that.

Some really good second and third tier schools (according to my research

Top-10 (I would choose these over many first-tiers)

Chicago-Kent (IP Law and writing programs best in midwest)
Cardozo (many say it's top-25)
Brooklyn (Can go BigLaw easily out of Brook)
Loyola-L.A. (a top gun in Entertainment Law)
Miami (#18 in Lawdragon, top-40ish in other polls, info supports that)
Case Western (was listed as consensus Tier-1)
San Diego (better than UC Hastings and Davis, some say)
Suffolk (tier-3? I don't think so!)
Howard (career prospects and teaching quality are tier-1!)
Temple (writing program one of the best, getting better all around)

Tennessee
Houston
Pepperdine
Northeastern
Cincinnati (buzz is growing!)
Syracuse
Villanova
Seton Hall
Pittsburgh
Georgia State
DePaul
Loyola-Chicago
Rutgers (Both)
St. John's
Marquette
Denver
Santa Clara
Pacific
Albany
Chapman
Cleveland State
Wayne State
Akron
Vermont
Hofstra
San Francisco
NYLS
Seattle-U (lousy employment, though)



Overrated Tier-1 Schools (according to some)

UConn
BYU
Arizona
Colorado
George Mason
William & Mary
Georgia
Alabama
Iowa
IU-Bloomington
SMU
Maryland

Rankings are not everything.
 

I really dig this list!

LawDog3

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 690
    • View Profile
Re: Kent PT or other Chicago schools Full Time
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2009, 12:35:14 AM »
I really dig this list!

Thanx. I know some other people won't. ;) :)

LawDog3

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 690
    • View Profile
Re: Kent PT or other Chicago schools Full Time
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2009, 12:37:17 AM »
You know? I do agree with a lot of what contrarian said below. Great post...I forgot to say that.


u2007

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: Kent PT or other Chicago schools Full Time
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2009, 03:46:31 PM »
For the record, I agree that rankings should not be the deciding factor in decisions. And there are several second-tier schools I would attend over so-called first-tier ones. But you have to understand, the rankings of schools largely impact students' ability to get into biglaw...and most law students, whether they admit it or not, want to go BigLaw, because they accumulate massive debt. Besides, they know that it's easier to build networks in BigLaw and work your way "down" (to, say a boutique firm or a localized specialty) or "laterally" (to, say...corporate in-house) rather than start at a boutique and decide you want to do IP law.

BigLaw is driving this whole thing, and I would not be surprized if USNWR was getting kickbacks for their rankings. The value of a law degree is artificially inflated on one end, and artificially depressed on the other, so i agree with contrarian on that.

Some really good second and third tier schools (according to my research

Top-10 (I would choose these over many first-tiers)

Chicago-Kent (IP Law and writing programs best in midwest)
Cardozo (many say it's top-25)
Brooklyn (Can go BigLaw easily out of Brook)
Loyola-L.A. (a top gun in Entertainment Law)
Miami (#18 in Lawdragon, top-40ish in other polls, info supports that)
Case Western (was listed as consensus Tier-1)
San Diego (better than UC Hastings and Davis, some say)
Suffolk (tier-3? I don't think so!)
Howard (career prospects and teaching quality are tier-1!)
Temple (writing program one of the best, getting better all around)

Tennessee
Houston
Pepperdine
Northeastern
Cincinnati (buzz is growing!)
Syracuse
Villanova
Seton Hall
Pittsburgh
Georgia State
DePaul
Loyola-Chicago
Rutgers (Both)
St. John's
Marquette
Denver
Santa Clara
Pacific
Albany
Chapman
Cleveland State
Wayne State
Akron
Vermont
Hofstra
San Francisco
NYLS
Seattle-U (superior education, lousy employment prospects - much too concentrated in Seattle)



Overrated Tier-1 Schools (according to some)

UConn
BYU
Arizona
Colorado
George Mason
William & Mary
Georgia
Alabama
Iowa
IU-Bloomington
SMU
Maryland

Rankings are not everything.
 

I would add American to that list of overrated Tier-1 schools.

espanol

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: Kent PT or other Chicago schools Full Time
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2009, 09:48:33 PM »
adding to lawdog's assessment of underrated tier 2 schools.  I was fortunate enough to get admitted into two schools on that list: Kent and Temple.  Frankly speaking, my goal is BigLaw prospects. Based on this factor which of the two would be a better choice?