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Author Topic: What constitutes "good grades"?  (Read 13224 times)

UnbelievablyTired

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Re: What constitutes "good grades"?
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2009, 01:29:07 PM »
Think about it:  full-time students have nothing else to focus on but law school, whereas the part-time students, most of whom do work full time and have familes, have to devote most of their time to the former priorities. 

I'm a 1L (as stated before), have a family (2 kids), and work 20 hours a week.  I go full-time so I can be done in 3 years.  We are all given the same material, and ranked according to how well we know it.   
 

unlvcrjchick

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Re: What constitutes "good grades"?
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2009, 03:51:30 PM »
Think about it:  full-time students have nothing else to focus on but law school, whereas the part-time students, most of whom do work full time and have familes, have to devote most of their time to the former priorities. 

I'm a 1L (as stated before), have a family (2 kids), and work 20 hours a week.  I go full-time so I can be done in 3 years.  We are all given the same material, and ranked according to how well we know it.   
 

So, you're saying the system is fair because you think the full-time class, in general, knows the material better and/or most full-time students have jobs and families as well? I'm sorry, but that's just not true.  Most full-time students don't have jobs:  you're the exception.  UNLV's ranking system is still ridiculous.  If the final-ranking system is so fair, then why is it part-time students aren't ranked with the full-time students from the very beginning?  My theory is that the school is too damn lazy to create separate rankings for the full-timers and the part-timers the final year.  Said laziness can also be seen by their unwillingness to rank everyone in the class as opposed to just assigning ranks to those in the top one-third.

Plus, the part-timers get the shaft by never having good classes from which to choose:  all of the "easy" and/or "interesting" classes that can pull one's rank up are offered during the day only.  Further, the best professors teach only during the day.  Trust me on this last point:  my boss let me take a few classes during the day, so I can compare professors during the day to those at night, and the day professors are far superior.  So there goes your theory that everyone learns the same material.  Other inequities:  OCI takes place during the day only; the UNLV staff in career services, etc., leave at 5 p.m., so there's no one to answer the part-timers' questions; mock interviews/competitions/club meetings are only offered during the day, etc.  So it shouldn't surprise me that the ranking system blows, too.  UNLV would be better off getting rid of the part-time program altogether, an option that they are supposedly considering as we speak.

BTW, not to take jbakguy to task or anything, but the true definion of peer is "a person who is equal to another in abilities, qualifications, age, background, and social status."  Well the "abilities" criterion arguably fits the definition, but certainly not the other criterion.  Those in the part-time class, in general, already have solid careers, higher economic and social status, and are older, have families so they have different backgrounds, etc.  Therefore, the full-timers are not really peers of the part-timers simply because they both attend law school.

But whatever:  we should all agree to disagree.  To those of you still in school, good luck with the rest of law school and on the bar.

soundsgood

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Re: What constitutes "good grades"?
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2009, 08:24:02 PM »
I'm still sort of confused about why you feel the system is so "unfair."  From my understanding, part-timers take (almost) all of their classes with other part-timers, and full-timers with full-timers.  Therefore, in each individual class, your performance on the exam is curved in relation to your fellow part-timers.  If the same 3.0 curve is used for both part-time and full-time sections, the grade breakdown should be very similar for each section.  While your GPA upon graduation is compared to the those of full-time students, you earned that GPA competing against fellow part-timers--your peer group.  Maybe the top 10% of part-timers are much smarter, or vice versa, but that doesn't change the fact that the top 10% should be essentially the same grade cutoff.  Curves are designed to account for differences amongst different sections, and to remedy the exact problem of which you complain.

unlvcrjchick

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Re: What constitutes "good grades"?
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2009, 11:03:11 PM »
I'm still sort of confused about why you feel the system is so "unfair."  From my understanding, part-timers take (almost) all of their classes with other part-timers, and full-timers with full-timers.  Therefore, in each individual class, your performance on the exam is curved in relation to your fellow part-timers.  If the same 3.0 curve is used for both part-time and full-time sections, the grade breakdown should be very similar for each section.  While your GPA upon graduation is compared to the those of full-time students, you earned that GPA competing against fellow part-timers--your peer group.  Maybe the top 10% of part-timers are much smarter, or vice versa, but that doesn't change the fact that the top 10% should be essentially the same grade cutoff.  Curves are designed to account for differences amongst different sections, and to remedy the exact problem of which you complain.

I already explained it adequately enough.  They should keep us ranked only with the part-timers until the VERY END.  It ISN'T fair to lump us together with the full-timers, who have more opportunities to excel in law school (I already listed them above), especially since we had for 3 years been ranked with just the part-timers.  Trust me, if you were in the part-time program, being ranked with the part-timers, and then suddenly find that your top one-third rank from the first 3 years is lost when lumped together with the full-timers, you would be highly pissed.  Being ranked in the top one-third is what gives you a much better opportunity to obtain an attorney job upon graduation and passing the bar.  The fact that you achieved that among your real peers (the part-timers) and yet had that taken away from you when suddenly compared to the full-timers (who aren't your peers) is unfair.  Period.

dashrashi

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Re: What constitutes "good grades"?
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2009, 07:53:00 AM »
No, I don't think you did. Do you not have the same curve as the full-timers do in your part-timer-only classes? Do you take classes with full-timers? The curve should mean that the same proportion of full-timers and part-timers get an A in Contracts, where they are only each respectively competing against their peer students. Accordingly, the top 5% full-timers in their class (let's say) get As in Contracts, and likewise, because of the curve, the top 5% of part-timers in their own Contracts class also get As. What's unfair about ranking those two sets of students together? They didn't have to compete against each other, and they both earned grades in the top 5% of their class. It makes no difference so long as the curve is the same and part-timers take all (or almost all, in which case it does not make no difference, admittedly, but rather makes almost no difference) of their classes competing only against other part-timers, even accepting your premise about part-timers having less ability/opportunity to succeed.
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UnbelievablyTired

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Re: What constitutes "good grades"?
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2009, 10:52:17 AM »
She doesn't get it. 

TTom

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Re: What constitutes "good grades"?
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2009, 01:21:30 PM »
I'm still sort of confused about why you feel the system is so "unfair."  From my understanding, part-timers take (almost) all of their classes with other part-timers, and full-timers with full-timers.  Therefore, in each individual class, your performance on the exam is curved in relation to your fellow part-timers.  If the same 3.0 curve is used for both part-time and full-time sections, the grade breakdown should be very similar for each section.  While your GPA upon graduation is compared to the those of full-time students, you earned that GPA competing against fellow part-timers--your peer group.  Maybe the top 10% of part-timers are much smarter, or vice versa, but that doesn't change the fact that the top 10% should be essentially the same grade cutoff.  Curves are designed to account for differences amongst different sections, and to remedy the exact problem of which you complain.

I already explained it adequately enough.  They should keep us ranked only with the part-timers until the VERY END.  It ISN'T fair to lump us together with the full-timers, who have more opportunities to excel in law school (I already listed them above), especially since we had for 3 years been ranked with just the part-timers.  Trust me, if you were in the part-time program, being ranked with the part-timers, and then suddenly find that your top one-third rank from the first 3 years is lost when lumped together with the full-timers, you would be highly pissed.  Being ranked in the top one-third is what gives you a much better opportunity to obtain an attorney job upon graduation and passing the bar.  The fact that you achieved that among your real peers (the part-timers) and yet had that taken away from you when suddenly compared to the full-timers (who aren't your peers) is unfair.  Period.

Your argument is crap. Everyone, whether it be full-timers or part-timers, has different obstacles. Maybe UNLV should create a separate ranking for students with kids too. And why stop there? There should be a number one in the class with 1 kid, a number one in the class with 2 kids and so on.

Further, part-timers statistically have lower LSATs and GPAs than full-timers. By having a separate ranking system you're essentially saying that UNLV should institute a handicap scheme.

jbakguy

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Re: What constitutes "good grades"?
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2009, 04:02:05 PM »


BTW, not to take jbakguy to task or anything, but the true definion of peer is "a person who is equal to another in abilities, qualifications, age, background, and social status."  Well the "abilities" criterion arguably fits the definition, but certainly not the other criterion.  Those in the part-time class, in general, already have solid careers, higher economic and social status, and are older, have families so they have different backgrounds, etc.  Therefore, the full-timers are not really peers of the part-timers simply because they both attend law school.


I was taken to task.

Although, I  must say that I am confused by the merging of an implication that part timers are not peers of full timers b/c they are better (higher economic and social status) into an argument that part timers deserve a separate ranking system b/c they achieve lower grades when compared to full timers then when compared to only part timers.

Again, I feel where you are coming from and respect your situation, but I disagree with your peer definition. Consideration is Consideration no matter what time you take the test. 
.

unlvcrjchick

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Re: What constitutes "good grades"?
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2009, 04:17:04 PM »
I'm still sort of confused about why you feel the system is so "unfair."  From my understanding, part-timers take (almost) all of their classes with other part-timers, and full-timers with full-timers.  Therefore, in each individual class, your performance on the exam is curved in relation to your fellow part-timers.  If the same 3.0 curve is used for both part-time and full-time sections, the grade breakdown should be very similar for each section.  While your GPA upon graduation is compared to the those of full-time students, you earned that GPA competing against fellow part-timers--your peer group.  Maybe the top 10% of part-timers are much smarter, or vice versa, but that doesn't change the fact that the top 10% should be essentially the same grade cutoff.  Curves are designed to account for differences amongst different sections, and to remedy the exact problem of which you complain.

I already explained it adequately enough.  They should keep us ranked only with the part-timers until the VERY END.  It ISN'T fair to lump us together with the full-timers, who have more opportunities to excel in law school (I already listed them above), especially since we had for 3 years been ranked with just the part-timers.  Trust me, if you were in the part-time program, being ranked with the part-timers, and then suddenly find that your top one-third rank from the first 3 years is lost when lumped together with the full-timers, you would be highly pissed.  Being ranked in the top one-third is what gives you a much better opportunity to obtain an attorney job upon graduation and passing the bar.  The fact that you achieved that among your real peers (the part-timers) and yet had that taken away from you when suddenly compared to the full-timers (who aren't your peers) is unfair.  Period.

Your argument is crap. Everyone, whether it be full-timers or part-timers, has different obstacles. Maybe UNLV should create a separate ranking for students with kids too. And why stop there? There should be a number one in the class with 1 kid, a number one in the class with 2 kids and so on.

Further, part-timers statistically have lower LSATs and GPAs than full-timers. By having a separate ranking system you're essentially saying that UNLV should institute a handicap scheme.

My argument is crap?  Your slippery-slope argument is so ridiculous, it's laughable.  The obstacles and characteristics I listed are the ones practically EVERY part-time student experiences, and not just a rare obstacle that hardly anyone experiences. And using your number-of-children example:  most part-timers do have children, which is not true of the younger, full-time students.  So the part-timers share enough characteristics, ones that the full-timers don't have, to consider them a separate peer group.  It's unfortunate that you fail to see the true definition of a peer.  The full-timers are not my peers simply because they attend the same law school. And do the part-timers take classes with the full-timers?  No, they do not.  The only time they would is if the part-timers got lucky enough to take a class during the day, and that rarely happens since part-timers are working full time.  So why the hell should they be lumped with the full timers when they really are in a class of their own?

About the "statistics" you mention:  that again is mostly due to part-timers having LESS time to study than the full-timers, and not due to a "handicap" or inability to do the work.  If they were unable to do the work, then why the hell would the law school admit them?  To drive their rankings down because these "handicapped" people were unable to pass the bar?  I don't think so. BTW, only one of the people in my part-time class failed the bar exam:  I and everyone else passed.  So we are certainly not "handicapped."

Also, accepting your argument as true, that the part-timers have lower GPA's on average than the full-timers, then my conclusion is correct:  namely that a separate, yet equal (5% of the part-time class still gets A's, just like in the full-time class) ranking should be applied.  If GPA's are lower among most part-timers, then why shouldn't there be a separate ranking system for them, assuming that this *is* a common, defining trait that is shared equally among the part-timers?  This is yet another reason why the part-timers should not be considered "peers" of the full-timers; that is, assuming that your "statistics" are indeed true.  

You first said that the full-timers and part-timers equally share obstacles, and then you followed this up by saying that the part-timers still tend to have lower GPA's than the full-timers, which distinguishes them enough to consider them to be separate from the full-timers for peer-classification purposes.  You just proved my argument for me, thank you very much.

soundsgood

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Re: What constitutes "good grades"?
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2009, 04:42:34 PM »
Wait...is it the same grading scale and curve for the part-time classes as full-time classes?  If the answer to that question is yes, then I don't think your complaint holds water.