Law School Discussion

Hamline or St. Thomas (MN)?

Bosox

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Re: Hamline or St. Thomas (MN)?
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2009, 10:42:56 AM »

Top schools in the cities:

1) UofMinn (tier 1)
2) St. Thomas (tier 3)
3) Hamline (tier 3)
4) William Mitchell (tier 4)

You really don't want to go to a tier 3, or god forbid a tier 4 school without a scholarship.

NMUZ

Re: Hamline or St. Thomas (MN)?
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2009, 11:59:48 AM »
I am excited about UST, I agree that it is going to be ranked higher and higher in the years to come.  2004 was the first graduating class and most of their graduates stay in the twin cities which is okay for me.  There seems to be a good market in the twin cities, and a lot of Minnesota grads leave the state.  My only couple of worries with UST is a short list of courses and limited (3) clinics.  With that said, I like UST and am looking forward to attending.

Re: Hamline or St. Thomas (MN)?
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2009, 12:30:47 PM »
From living in the Twin Cities for the past four years, I know that the University of St. Thomas has an excellent reputation here. Sometimes I even wished I had gone to St. Thomas for undergrad instead of University of Minnesota..

I am trying to decide between Marquette, UMiami, and St. Thomas w/ $$$ to all 3 ( and still awaiting reply from a few other schools).  Additionally, St. Thomas has offered enough $$ that
I would graduate without any debt, so it would definitely be a good deal in terms of price.  However, I'm still having a difficult time deciding where to go, as each of these schools have their advantages and disadvantages.

While St. Thomas' school of law has only (re)opened 10 years ago, it already seems to have established itself quite well in that time, and is rapidly improving.  This aspect makes it a good investment, and I think within another 10 years it will probably be a Tier 1 school (due to the amount of money they are investing into their law school in scholarship/faculty/etc + its awesome downtown location + nice facility + University's outstanding reputation). It seems to be improving much more rapidly than any of the other law schools in MN.

My only two concerns with St. Thomas are:

1.) The religious aspect of the school.  Except this concern was alleviated when I spoke to a current UST Law student who is Jewish.  She told me that this hasn't at all been an issue for her, and that if religion is brought into discussion at all, it is done in a very tasteful matter that mostly has to do with ethics and public service, etc.

2.) University of Minnesota Law grads (who do extremely well) get offered 100K + jobs at graduation.  While post-graduation job placement is something I haven't explored a great deal, do UST grads who place at the top of their class receive similar offers?

So yeah, I'm glad St. Thomas was brought up because I am trying to figure out if this school would be a good choice for me.

There are approximately 10-15 law firms in Minnesota that offer 100K+ starting salaries.  (Dorsey, Faegre, Fredrikson, Robins, Gray Plant, Briggs, Leonard, Lindquist, Oppenheimer, Zelle, Winthrop, Maslon, Felhaber, and a few others)  If you are really interested in whether or not these firms employ graduates from UST simply go to their websites and search through the attorneys.  Not very difficult to do, in fact some of these websites will allow you to search for specific law schools.  I think you will be very surprised at what you see... While you are at it, you might want to check how many grads from WM, Hamline, and U of M, have been receiving jobs at these firms, these results will shock you, I promise.

Remarq

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Re: Hamline or St. Thomas (MN)?
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2009, 12:58:20 PM »
I just looked through NALP http://www.nalpdirectory.com/dledir_search_advanced.asp and didn't see anything shocking. It seemed to depend a lot on the firm, some had a lot WM, some Hamline, - UST being new, it's not surprising that there were fewer. UMN had a ton, the only thing that might be counted as shocking was the number of out-of-region schools represented. 

Re: Hamline or St. Thomas (MN)?
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2009, 01:18:58 PM »
I just looked through NALP http://www.nalpdirectory.com/dledir_search_advanced.asp and didn't see anything shocking. It seemed to depend a lot on the firm, some had a lot WM, some Hamline, - UST being new, it's not surprising that there were fewer. UMN had a ton, the only thing that might be counted as shocking was the number of out-of-region schools represented. 

Just because NALP says that these firms recruit at St. Thomas, doesn't mean that they hire from there.  You need to actually look at the websites, the class of 2008 is already employed, and if they were working at these firms, they would be listed, and some are, but very very few...

Re: Hamline or St. Thomas (MN)?
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2009, 01:27:56 PM »
http://www.lindquist.com/summer_associate_comments/xprGeneralContentLindquist.aspx?xpST=GeneralContent  here is just a random sampling of what you will be seeing in the MN legal market, notice lots of WM, U of M, and very few from the other schools.  This is only one firm, please check the others, and then if you still think UST is so well respected in MN, you've got problems.  They are no doubt a good school, but the fact of the matter is that every school reads the same cases, and at the end of it all, every student takes the same bar.  Only thing that separates them is class rank, and school name...

NMUZ

Re: Hamline or St. Thomas (MN)?
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2009, 01:49:21 PM »
Okay, I will give you that WM has more alumni in the twin cities.  However, what some people on here are saying is that this will change with more UST graduates.  I believe that year after year UST will have more grads landing jobs and more firms will come to UST to hire because of the lawyers they are producing.

miller

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Re: Hamline or St. Thomas (MN)?
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2009, 02:05:36 PM »
Just an fyi.  The tier 4 school has been around for a long time and that obviously is why firms have more alumni.  Bigfirms still hire from the higher ranked schools.


Take a look at the most recent summer class at the white shoe firm in Minneapolis, Faegre & Benson:

Go to Page 13:
http://www.faegre.com/webfiles/Trends%20May%20June%202008_web%20ready.pdf

UofSt placed more students than either WM or Hamline in the top Minneapolis firm.

I don't think there is that big of a difference, but I wouldn't go to a tier 4 school unless I recieved a full scholarship.

NOTE:  I could care less about these scchools and have no vested interest.  Just throwing out some useful information

Remarq

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Re: Hamline or St. Thomas (MN)?
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2009, 02:14:20 PM »
I just looked through NALP http://www.nalpdirectory.com/dledir_search_advanced.asp and didn't see anything shocking. It seemed to depend a lot on the firm, some had a lot WM, some Hamline, - UST being new, it's not surprising that there were fewer. UMN had a ton, the only thing that might be counted as shocking was the number of out-of-region schools represented. 

Just because NALP says that these firms recruit at St. Thomas, doesn't mean that they hire from there.  You need to actually look at the websites, the class of 2008 is already employed, and if they were working at these firms, they would be listed, and some are, but very very few...

I did, I went to the firm websites and I looked at where the attorneys went. And guess what? Nothing shocking. Notice how I make reference to 'out-of-region schools' represented in the law offices in Minnesota.

Re: Hamline or St. Thomas (MN)?
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2009, 06:55:47 PM »
NMUZ - I should have been more clear in my posts, I realize that your choices are between Hamline and UST.  With that being said, you absolutely will be making the right choice in choosing UST!  What I was trying to point out, with regards to your options that were so shocking, was the fact that many of the firms on the list I provided have less than 5, in some cases 2, graduates from Hamline working there, and at least the same amount from UST.  That is shocking, considering the fact that Hamline has been around for over 30 years.  So, to answer your original question, you should absolutely choose UST and be confident that you have made the right choice.  Just keep in mind, the big firms will require a very high class rank from UST, Hamline, or Mitchell - usually about top 10% simply to apply - at UST that means that about 15 students a year have a legitimate shot at one of these jobs.  Be cognizant of this and do not underestimate the importance of first year grades. 

ihateusernames - you have three options, as I have made clear, my opinion is that you should choose Mitchell over the other two if you are still undecided.  If you do well at Mitchell, your options will be much better than at the other two schools.  Just this year, 4 out of the 10 Minnesota Supreme Court clerks were hired from Mitchell, and another three students took Federal District Court clerkships.  These statistics would be scoffed at by many tier 1 students, but the fact that a "tier 4" places this well is pretty remarkable.  Furthermore, do not be surprised if Mitchell climbs back to tier 3 this year.  This years avg LSAT is the same as St. Thomas, and the AVG GPA is much higher. Also, it was only two years ago that Mitchell was a tier 3, so proceed with caution.  Over the years, Hamline and Mitchell have fluctuated between tier 3 and tier 4 several times.  In the grand scheme of things, this means nothing.  Regional reputation, of a regional school, is much more important than anything else.