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Author Topic: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better  (Read 10583 times)

Matthies

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Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
« Reply #50 on: February 03, 2009, 01:38:28 PM »
the write up was just an example of legal outsourcing and how it may be done ethically.

i dont think the write up, or model rules for that matter,  applies to OP at all because he is not a lawyer.  A state's adoption of the rules are only binding on lawyers.  The lawyers in which OP consults with might have concerns with sharing legal fees/unauthorized practice etc... which may ultimately determine whether they work with OP.  Someone else can respond to this, its been a while since PR.

hence my point, if you do as lawyer then your sharing fees with non lawyers in which case you might have some ethical concerns, hence why I would run my biz model by a alwyer first before I started recuiting talent. But what do I know, I did not get a 167 on the LSAT  :P
*In clinical studies, Matthies was well tolerated, but women who are pregnant, nursing or might become pregnant should not take or handle Matthies due to a rare, but serious side effect called him having to make child support payments.

Ricephilx

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Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2009, 01:54:27 PM »
Thanks for the replies.

Regarding the high hourly fees, remember, our service is intended for occasional use only, when lawyers are willing to pay extra for quick help they can trust.  We may adopt a multi-tiered system if we sense there is a demand for more-than-occasional usage. 

Re: per project vs. hourly rate:  We have a hybrid system.  It is intended to keep costs down and quality up:

When submitting projects, lawyers provide a description of the project and a limit, in hours, of how long the project should take.  Being lawyers, our clients are in a good position to accurately estimate the time a law student should take for a given project.  But if our students think a given limit is unreasonable, they are able to leave feedback on the project, and the client may raise the limit, or withdraw the project altogether -- but if a student thinks they can do it within the initial limit, they pick up the project on the spot.  This is the "first come, first serve" system I alluded to.  It is a free market competition.  If the student is unable to get it done satisfactorily within the time allotted, they have to finish the project to the client's satisfaction without getting paid for the additional hours -- if they want to remain our associate.  The client can also willingly add hours to the project if he wants to expand its scope, in which case, the student gets paid for the additional hours. 

With respect to the ABA statement, here is what I have told our future client-lawyers:

-We do not provide legal services, in the formal definition of the term, but help you provide legal services. The work we do can be thought of that of an uncertified paralegal.  In this sense, we are non-lawyers who have independent contracts with other non-lawyers.   
-You directly supervise all the work-product of our students.
-You have direct access to them when they are working on your project. 
-What you do with the work-product of our students is your business. We have no contact with your clients. 
-If and how you pass along our fee to your clients is up to your discretion, like it is with your own in-office legal assistants/paralegals. 


Thanks,

Will 


Matthies

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Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
« Reply #52 on: February 03, 2009, 02:07:05 PM »
 

With respect to the ABA statement, here is what I have told our future client-lawyers:

-We do not provide legal services, in the formal definition of the term, but help you provide legal services. The work we do can be thought of that of an uncertified paralegal.  In this sense, we are non-lawyers who have independent contracts with other non-lawyers.   
...

-If and how you pass along our fee to your clients is up to your discretion, like it is with your own in-office legal assistants/paralegals. 


Thanks,

Will 



There is a difference, precisely because of this rule, in how you bill for support staff and how you bill for legal fees attributable to lawyers. Law students, often times employed as “legal clerks” are the one exception to this rule. If not, it would be much more profitable to just have all legal work done by paralegals, which of course you can’t because of that pesky no practicing without a license thingy.  I just don’t see how passing the buck this way and saying the risk is on you not us is going to help your case or encourage folks to hire you. 
*In clinical studies, Matthies was well tolerated, but women who are pregnant, nursing or might become pregnant should not take or handle Matthies due to a rare, but serious side effect called him having to make child support payments.

Bob Loblaw Esq.

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Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
« Reply #53 on: February 03, 2009, 02:12:33 PM »

Regarding the high hourly fees, remember, our service is intended for occasional use only, when lawyers are willing to pay extra for quick help they can trust. 

If a lawyer is looking to pay extra for quick help he can trust, he will hire an atty/staff member who is qualified to do the work quickly in a trustworthy manner, not pay extra for a law student who takes significantly longer and must be babysat.

Quote

When submitting projects, lawyers provide a description of the project and a limit, in hours, of how long the project should take.  Being lawyers, our clients are in a good position to accurately estimate the time a law student should take for a given project.  But if our students think a given limit is unreasonable, they are able to leave feedback on the project, and the client may raise the limit, or withdraw the project altogether -- but if a student thinks they can do it within the initial limit, they pick up the project on the spot.  This is the "first come, first serve" system I alluded to.  It is a free market competition.  If the student is unable to get it done satisfactorily within the time allotted, they have to finish the project to the client's satisfaction without getting paid for the additional hours -- if they want to remain our associate.  The client can also willingly add hours to the project if he wants to expand its scope, in which case, the student gets paid for the additional hours. 

lol.  every lawyer knows that it will take a law student longer; accordingly, no lawyer who want fast and reliable service will have any incentive to use this service.  There's your free market.    also, no law student, aside from the suckers who sign up, will stick around and agree to finish a project to the client's satisfaction without getting paid.  are you serious?

Quote
  
-You directly supervise all the work-product of our students.
-You have direct access to them when they are working on your project. 

again, pay to babysit?



vap

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Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
« Reply #54 on: February 03, 2009, 04:52:41 PM »
Quote
When submitting projects, lawyers provide a description of the project and a limit, in hours, of how long the project should take.  Being lawyers, our clients are in a good position to accurately estimate the time a law student should take for a given project.  But if our students think a given limit is unreasonable, they are able to leave feedback on the project, and the client may raise the limit, or withdraw the project altogether -- but if a student thinks they can do it within the initial limit, they pick up the project on the spot.  This is the "first come, first serve" system I alluded to.  It is a free market competition.  If the student is unable to get it done satisfactorily within the time allotted, they have to finish the project to the client's satisfaction without getting paid for the additional hours -- if they want to remain our associate.  The client can also willingly add hours to the project if he wants to expand its scope, in which case, the student gets paid for the additional hours. 

lol.  every lawyer knows that it will take a law student longer; accordingly, no lawyer who want fast and reliable service will have any incentive to use this service.  There's your free market.    also, no law student, aside from the suckers who sign up, will stick around and agree to finish a project to the client's satisfaction without getting paid.  are you serious?

This aspect doesn't seem like such a big deal.  Essentially, it's a flat rate system.  "I pay you $25/hour, not to exceed 6 hours of work."  This happens in practice; if not formally, then informally when a partner (or sole practitioner) decides to bill for fewer hours than were actually worked to appease a client. 

Also, the $X/hour not to exceed Y hours is exactly how some prepaid legal plans operate.  These are run by nonlawyers, and the lawyers who actually perform the work are still bound by their duty to the client to provide zealous representation (regardless of whether they are getting paid).  But yeah, I definitely see your point that law students might not take such a responsibility seriously (because they don't have a client and their not representing anyone; thus no duty to client).

But again, what a lawyer might want to do instead is anticipate that it will take about 6 hours of work and just offer the "project" for $150.  That way, students don't feel gypped when they earn $150 in the first 6 hours and $0 in the next 4 hours on a 10-hour project.  But that's life, especially for any solo or small firm lawyers starting right after school.

Ricephilx

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Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
« Reply #55 on: February 03, 2009, 06:26:33 PM »
Folks,

Re: Lexis and Westlaw

Loislaw is available to law students for free, summers included, until 6 months after graduation.  You get access to their comprehensive National Collection, described here:  http://www.loislaw.com/product/subscriptions/national.htm

It IS permitted for use for non-academic purposes. In fact, since they are trying to gain market share, they encourage you to use it during your summer job.  You should be able to get a username and password through your law library. 

Link to an instant trial subscription, if you want to see how it looks and works: http://ecom.loislaw.com/freetrial/index.htp?target=demo/trialpage.htp&access=LLDEMO

The trial doesn't include all the features, like GlobalCite.  Here are GlobalCite's capabilities for your review:  http://www.loislaw.com/product/information/research/tools/globalcite.htm

It's clearly has some weaknesses. It is not as good as Lexis or Westlaw in terms of search sophistication, nor does it provide editorial enhancements or foreign law/treaties.  But I've never used it; I'm interested if actual work can be done with it.  Your expert feedback would be especially appreciated. 

Thanks,

Will   





DrLazarus

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Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
« Reply #56 on: February 03, 2009, 10:10:53 PM »
This idea, if not flame, is a hot mess.

BTW, is using the board for this purpose (soliciting law students to do some, at best, unorthodox work) even permitted?
Michigan 2010.  Brr.

Thistle

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Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2009, 12:17:26 AM »
by god, who WOULDNT jump at this opportunity!

here's my resume:

top 20% of class
will graduate this may with honors
four top papers
published article in (mystate) bar association real estate publication
edited book on international criminal law, publishing credits
national article pending publication in (anotherstate) journal
won regional moot court tournament, best oralist, best brief
placed quarter-finals national moot court tournament
won civil rights case in federal court
won civil rights case in (mystate) court
won appeal to worker's comp commission
won two appeals to court of veteran's claims
won civil rights appeal before (mystate) supreme court


oh wait, wait.....sorry, my 2006 lsat doesnt meet your requirements.

nevermind.
non ex transverso sed deorsum


JD

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Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2009, 12:30:28 AM »
Clearly you are unfit to Google legal things on the web. How did you even find your way to this discussion board???

TimMitchell

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Re: Top Law Students Needed to Fill PT Positions -- 167 LSAT or Better
« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2009, 02:15:01 AM »
by god, who WOULDNT jump at this opportunity!

here's my resume:

top 20% of class
will graduate this may with honors
four top papers
published article in (mystate) bar association real estate publication
edited book on international criminal law, publishing credits
national article pending publication in (anotherstate) journal
won regional moot court tournament, best oralist, best brief
placed quarter-finals national moot court tournament
won civil rights case in federal court
won civil rights case in (mystate) court
won appeal to worker's comp commission
won two appeals to court of veteran's claims
won civil rights appeal before (mystate) supreme court


oh wait, wait.....sorry, my 2006 lsat doesnt meet your requirements.

nevermind.

Didn't you realize in 2006 that the LSAT would determine your entire future? Look at your now, you aren't even qualified for part time virtual legal research companies that advertise and hire annoymously on internet message boards.

LOL- Career Fail!