challenge to urm's

[Kirk Lazarus]

1. As addressed above, poverty doesn't cause crime. There are many white and asian communities that are impoverished yet have reasonably low crime rates. The failing isn't the poverty, it's the attitude.

2. On the first half, of course it's rare for people to advance much beyond their class, if it wasn't, it wouldn't matter. Any single person still stands a better chance of making it here in America than anywhere else on Earth. Here, as long as you're reasonably intelligent, work hard, and obey the law, you'll be fine. On the second half, whites were poor when they got here (in fact, there wasn't really anything of note here at the time). Asians were even poorer and more recent arrivals to the country. Yet both groups have done remarkably well. Slavery isn't a legitimate excuse for the black condition and hasn't been in some time. If blacks can't break the poverty cycle in about 140 years, they probably never will without some serious internal dialog about why the failings persist. Virtually every other group has, in the time they've been here, broken the poverty cycle within 2-3 generations.

ok, now that's just racist.  not even "kind of" racist.  just plain racist.

furthermore, other minority groups in the US have not had to deal with institutional racism, which ended not so long ago (probably less than 2-3 generations!  even!), let alone societal racism which stopped...oh, wait.  it hasn't.  as exemplified by you.

Seriously dude.  you make everyone look bad.  and give lawdog's rants some basis in reality.  ffs

Call it racist if you want, it still doesn't make it any less true.

I've already pointed out (some number of pages ago) that the disenfranchisement of blacks until the 1960s or '70s (depending on your perspective) is the best argument for why blacks are still down. Previous poster tried to make it about slavery, so I addressed that instead.

No, I think it is probably beyond dispute that lack of wealth, education and power among African Americans can be traced back to slavery. Building wealth and power is generational (meaning acquired over time) and comparative (meaning poor or rich is only relevant compared to some other group). Given the "head start" whites have been given, it is pretty remarkable, in my opinion, that there are so many Blacks have been able to gain power, wealth and education in this country. It probably has something to do with the liberal policies giving "unqualified blacks" opportunity.

And sure, other minorities have come poor to this country, but tell me another group in this country that has had to deal with the institutional racism that has consistently been perpetuated against Blacks in the United States? Being poor is one thing. Getting out of slavery, only to move to sharecropping then having a reconstruction period in which rights are given to you only to have it taken all away soon after is another. Then not being allowed to borrow money or go to college or vote or run for office is another. Then to have groups spawn with the direct purpose to intimidate you from moving forward and to kill you if you do is another. Then to have scientific leaders constantly perpetuate research that you are inferior intellectually is another. The to have a system of legalized segregation is another. Then to be constantly told that your plight is your own fault is another. Think about it...most blacks are poor ON TOP of all this excess BS that they've had to deal with.

Yes, America is amazing. I love this country with all my heart and I do think that African Americans should, as a group, take more personal responsibility in remedying their situation. BUT, if you think that Blacks don't have a legitimate gripe with the way things are right now or have a justification in supporting programs that are redistributive in nature, then you're clearly delusional.

[mbw]

1. As addressed above, poverty doesn't cause crime. There are many white and asian communities that are impoverished yet have reasonably low crime rates. The failing isn't the poverty, it's the attitude.

2. On the first half, of course it's rare for people to advance much beyond their class, if it wasn't, it wouldn't matter. Any single person still stands a better chance of making it here in America than anywhere else on Earth. Here, as long as you're reasonably intelligent, work hard, and obey the law, you'll be fine. On the second half, whites were poor when they got here (in fact, there wasn't really anything of note here at the time). Asians were even poorer and more recent arrivals to the country. Yet both groups have done remarkably well. Slavery isn't a legitimate excuse for the black condition and hasn't been in some time. If blacks can't break the poverty cycle in about 140 years, they probably never will without some serious internal dialog about why the failings persist. Virtually every other group has, in the time they've been here, broken the poverty cycle within 2-3 generations.

ok, now that's just racist.  not even "kind of" racist.  just plain racist.

furthermore, other minority groups in the US have not had to deal with institutional racism, which ended not so long ago (probably less than 2-3 generations!  even!), let alone societal racism which stopped...oh, wait.  it hasn't.  as exemplified by you.

Seriously dude.  you make everyone look bad.  and give lawdog's rants some basis in reality.  ffs

Call it racist if you want, it still doesn't make it any less true.

I've already pointed out (some number of pages ago) that the disenfranchisement of blacks until the 1960s or '70s (depending on your perspective) is the best argument for why blacks are still down. Previous poster tried to make it about slavery, so I addressed that instead.

No, I think it is probably beyond dispute that lack of wealth, education and power among African Americans can be traced back to slavery. Building wealth and power is generational (meaning acquired over time) and comparative (meaning poor or rich is only relevant compared to some other group). Given the "head start" whites have been given, it is pretty remarkable, in my opinion, that there are so many Blacks have been able to gain power, wealth and education in this country. It probably has something to do with the liberal policies giving "unqualified blacks" opportunity.

And sure, other minorities have come poor to this country, but tell me another group in this country that has had to deal with the institutional racism that has consistently been perpetuated against Blacks in the United States? Being poor is one thing. Getting out of slavery, only to move to sharecropping then having a reconstruction period in which rights are given to you only to have it taken all away soon after is another. Then not being allowed to borrow money or go to college or vote or run for office is another. Then to have groups spawn with the direct purpose to intimidate you from moving forward and to kill you if you do is another. Then to have scientific leaders constantly perpetuate research that you are inferior intellectually is another. The to have a system of legalized segregation is another. Then to be constantly told that your plight is your own fault is another. Think about it...most blacks are poor ON TOP of all this excess BS that they've had to deal with.

Yes, America is amazing. I love this country with all my heart and I do think that African Americans should, as a group, take more personal responsibility in remedying their situation. BUT, if you think that Blacks don't have a legitimate gripe with the way things are right now or have a justification in supporting programs that are redistributive in nature, then you're clearly delusional.

Sorry, A., but I'm calling you on this one. Yes, African Americans had to deal with slavery, but we Indians not only had all of our land and resources taken, but were subject to 400+ years of outright genocide and forced assimilation.  And, yeah, we suffer the consequences of it every effing day.  I have no problem with affirmative action policies for African Americans - but it's pretty clear in law school admissions (as well as many other venues) that NDNs get no where near the same attention/assistance that African Americans do, despite our (per-capita) much worse conditions, and the historic implications of colonization and genocide.  Oh, and slavery too.  We had to deal with that as well.  So if it's all about "righting past wrongs", why are we so forgotten? 

Just sayin'.  Carry on, however, with your proper thrashing of Ninja.  Just keep the above in mind when making such blanket statements.

[Kirk Lazarus]

1. As addressed above, poverty doesn't cause crime. There are many white and asian communities that are impoverished yet have reasonably low crime rates. The failing isn't the poverty, it's the attitude.

2. On the first half, of course it's rare for people to advance much beyond their class, if it wasn't, it wouldn't matter. Any single person still stands a better chance of making it here in America than anywhere else on Earth. Here, as long as you're reasonably intelligent, work hard, and obey the law, you'll be fine. On the second half, whites were poor when they got here (in fact, there wasn't really anything of note here at the time). Asians were even poorer and more recent arrivals to the country. Yet both groups have done remarkably well. Slavery isn't a legitimate excuse for the black condition and hasn't been in some time. If blacks can't break the poverty cycle in about 140 years, they probably never will without some serious internal dialog about why the failings persist. Virtually every other group has, in the time they've been here, broken the poverty cycle within 2-3 generations.

ok, now that's just racist.  not even "kind of" racist.  just plain racist.

furthermore, other minority groups in the US have not had to deal with institutional racism, which ended not so long ago (probably less than 2-3 generations!  even!), let alone societal racism which stopped...oh, wait.  it hasn't.  as exemplified by you.

Seriously dude.  you make everyone look bad.  and give lawdog's rants some basis in reality.  ffs

Call it racist if you want, it still doesn't make it any less true.

I've already pointed out (some number of pages ago) that the disenfranchisement of blacks until the 1960s or '70s (depending on your perspective) is the best argument for why blacks are still down. Previous poster tried to make it about slavery, so I addressed that instead.

No, I think it is probably beyond dispute that lack of wealth, education and power among African Americans can be traced back to slavery. Building wealth and power is generational (meaning acquired over time) and comparative (meaning poor or rich is only relevant compared to some other group). Given the "head start" whites have been given, it is pretty remarkable, in my opinion, that there are so many Blacks have been able to gain power, wealth and education in this country. It probably has something to do with the liberal policies giving "unqualified blacks" opportunity.

And sure, other minorities have come poor to this country, but tell me another group in this country that has had to deal with the institutional racism that has consistently been perpetuated against Blacks in the United States? Being poor is one thing. Getting out of slavery, only to move to sharecropping then having a reconstruction period in which rights are given to you only to have it taken all away soon after is another. Then not being allowed to borrow money or go to college or vote or run for office is another. Then to have groups spawn with the direct purpose to intimidate you from moving forward and to kill you if you do is another. Then to have scientific leaders constantly perpetuate research that you are inferior intellectually is another. The to have a system of legalized segregation is another. Then to be constantly told that your plight is your own fault is another. Think about it...most blacks are poor ON TOP of all this excess BS that they've had to deal with.

Yes, America is amazing. I love this country with all my heart and I do think that African Americans should, as a group, take more personal responsibility in remedying their situation. BUT, if you think that Blacks don't have a legitimate gripe with the way things are right now or have a justification in supporting programs that are redistributive in nature, then you're clearly delusional.

Sorry, A., but I'm calling you on this one. Yes, African Americans had to deal with slavery, but we Indians not only had all of our land and resources taken, but were subject to 400+ years of outright genocide and forced assimilation.  And, yeah, we suffer the consequences of it every effing day.  I have no problem with affirmative action policies for African Americans - but it's pretty clear in law school admissions (as well as many other venues) that NDNs get no where near the same attention/assistance that African Americans do, despite our (per-capita) much worse conditions, and the historic implications of colonization and genocide.  Oh, and slavery too.  We had to deal with that as well.  So if it's all about "righting past wrongs", why are we so forgotten? 

Just sayin'.  Carry on, however, with your proper thrashing of Ninja.  Just keep the above in mind when making such blanket statements.

Native Americans were already here. They didn't "come" to this country. But yes, you are correct, I can see how my post seems to undermine the plight of NA. Good call.

And I'm not A.

[LawDog3]

You know, the discussions (in this day in age) about the implications of slavery really obscure the problems black Americans have dealt with. people love to bring up slavery b/c it seems so long ago, and that gives them amunition to say, "Hey, why can't you just get over it? That was a long time ago, and I didn't do it, neither did my family or anyone I know.'

Truth is, today's Blacks couldn't and shouldn't care less about slavery. WE WERE NOT SLAVES. What I care about is the stuff that happened after the slaves were SUPPOSED to be FREE, and the stuff that still happens today (1865-2009). I care about that platform in Oakland, where an unarmed Black man was gunned down by a cop. I care about James Byrd getting dragged behind a truck until his eyes popped out. I care about what haapened last summer when I was discriminated against when i applied for a job.

I care about the fact that I am currently suing a former landlord for discrimination (the key offenders were fired from their jobs, in hopes that it might curtail our suit). And t the time my biggot landlord was discriminating against my girlfriend and me ("ME" not "I"), I had been preparing law school applications.

She hindered all of that. I could not take the LSAT, I didn't finish my essays, and I had to move in the middle of it all due to her harrassment. That's the kind of stuff we deal with today, that takes a toll on us as Blacks.   

As for Indians? We could go back and forth all day about who has it worse. Forget Chris Rock's remarks about the Indians having it worse than Blacks...that bull. Moreover, over 60% of African-Americans have some Indian heritage in their background, so we are not separate. Yet, those same Blacks don't get benefits from the BIA...must be nice getting a $700 check tax-free every month. I'm 1/4 Blackfoot Indian and I get nothing because I am not a member of a tribe.

Both groups have caught hell, and it's not in the past. it's yesterday, today, and tomorrow...the "here and now" is what we are talking about.