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Author Topic: challenge to urm's  (Read 25362 times)

Ninja1

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Re: challenge to urm's
« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2009, 06:26:14 PM »
Have we seen any evidence to indicate there's ever a definite winning point anywhere in life? I mean, the best you can hope for is to retire well off and have a decent family, maybe leave some kind of legacy. And right about the time you get all that sorted out, you die from old age, death usually being a pretty clear "lose" point.

Society limits everyone's opportunities all the time. Well, unless you're a certain recent president, then it seems to insulate you from your poor decisions. But anyway, at what point did it become a social responsibility to help "limited" people up? What ever happened to the concept of people helping themselves up? URMs don't need "help" getting into good law schools, they need to do the same thing non-URMs do; get a better GPA and a better LSAT, both of which are entirely doable. In such an easily remedied situation, there's no need for help, just harder work.

There may not be winning point in any given life, but it strikes me that a winning point in societal life is that all people are equally deserving of rights and opportunity.  Both under the law and inside our heads.

It became a social responsibility to help people as soon as we started living in groups.  So, several million years ago.  Hard work doesn't help if the opportunity is not there.

Furthermore, your use of "limited" is entirely insulting.  Congratulations.

I agree. And doesn't URM bumps thwart that very goal?

Depends on at what scale your looking at. Yeah, everyone is dependent on everyone else to live in society (well, there's probably a few woodsmen out there that would dispute this, but odds are they won't be jumping in here), but I'm not talking about the fabric of society here. I'm talking about feeling compelled to drag other people up. Your talking about the net, which I think we all agree is a good thing. I'm talking about the ladder, where the dispute seems to be if everyone can climb it on their own, or if they need someone to pull them up. I'm of the opinion that if you can't climb on your own power, you're best left behind.

Thank ye, I try. If you're going to be "limited" by society, then aren't you one of the "limited"? Seems pretty spot on to me.

How would providing the same opportunity to people who may not otherwise be able to obtain it not work.

Re: ladder example.  If the ladder doesn't go all the way up, you can't use it to climb up.  Thus, we need a way to make sure that everyone is able to get to the same level the ladder goes to.  I'm not sure how much clearer I can be about this.  We live in a meritocracy, yes, but its only part of the equation. 

Finally, people aren't "limited".  Society can, however, limit opportunity.  Try using it as verb next time, rather than an adjective, and maybe everyone who reads this won't think you're completely racist.    :!

It works, and that's the problem. What prevents a URM from working harder in college and on the LSAT? They have the same general abilities as non-URMs, so what's the problem? I'm not from an education rich area by any means, but myself and a few others got it together and moved on, so why not everyone else? You really can do most anything if you're willing to work for it.

At what point is the job done and the meritocracy takes back over? It's not like URMs are being kept out of the system anymore, now it's mostly do to self selection. And those that do get the boost aren't overly benefited, if anything, they may be being harmed. There was an article by some Harvard professor that determined the aa bump has likely has caused something like 7,000 fewer lawyers to be produced than otherwise would have been thanks to people getting into schools they're not qualified for and washing out and people at the bottom never even getting the shot because the otherwise qualified non-URMs trickle down and wash them completely out.

If people are limited by the system, aren't they then "limited" much the same that people that are in poverty are "impoverished" people and people that are handicapped are "handicapped" people? Your point is more PC, mine is more direct. If anything, your point exposes your racist bent more than mine, as you're equating "limited" to URMs by reason of thinking it was racist on my part.
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Ninja1

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Re: challenge to urm's
« Reply #51 on: March 29, 2009, 06:27:54 PM »
Have we seen any evidence to indicate there's ever a definite winning point anywhere in life? I mean, the best you can hope for is to retire well off and have a decent family, maybe leave some kind of legacy. And right about the time you get all that sorted out, you die from old age, death usually being a pretty clear "lose" point.

Society limits everyone's opportunities all the time. Well, unless you're a certain recent president, then it seems to insulate you from your poor decisions. But anyway, at what point did it become a social responsibility to help "limited" people up? What ever happened to the concept of people helping themselves up? URMs don't need "help" getting into good law schools, they need to do the same thing non-URMs do; get a better GPA and a better LSAT, both of which are entirely doable. In such an easily remedied situation, there's no need for help, just harder work.

There may not be winning point in any given life, but it strikes me that a winning point in societal life is that all people are equally deserving of rights and opportunity.  Both under the law and inside our heads.

It became a social responsibility to help people as soon as we started living in groups.  So, several million years ago.  Hard work doesn't help if the opportunity is not there.

Furthermore, your use of "limited" is entirely insulting.  Congratulations.

I agree. And doesn't URM bumps thwart that very goal?

Depends on at what scale your looking at. Yeah, everyone is dependent on everyone else to live in society (well, there's probably a few woodsmen out there that would dispute this, but odds are they won't be jumping in here), but I'm not talking about the fabric of society here. I'm talking about feeling compelled to drag other people up. Your talking about the net, which I think we all agree is a good thing. I'm talking about the ladder, where the dispute seems to be if everyone can climb it on their own, or if they need someone to pull them up. I'm of the opinion that if you can't climb on your own power, you're best left behind.

Thank ye, I try. If you're going to be "limited" by society, then aren't you one of the "limited"? Seems pretty spot on to me.

How would providing the same opportunity to people who may not otherwise be able to obtain it not work.

Re: ladder example.  If the ladder doesn't go all the way up, you can't use it to climb up.  Thus, we need a way to make sure that everyone is able to get to the same level the ladder goes to.  I'm not sure how much clearer I can be about this.  We live in a meritocracy, yes, but its only part of the equation. 

Finally, people aren't "limited".  Society can, however, limit opportunity.  Try using it as verb next time, rather than an adjective, and maybe everyone who reads this won't think you're completely racist.    :!

Too late.

URM's are "working harder"...harder than you will ever know. Non- URM's are either too stupid to get it or are complete barbarians who continue to lie about the conditions URM's live under. It's one or the other. The alternative is to believe that we are inferior, which is really what they are saying.

Going to college with nothing to worry about except studying, playing handball and an occasional part-time pizza or barista gig is not the same thing as going to college as a typical Black or Mexican student.

Half of the time, u have attended grossly inferior schools, to begin with, putting you behind the eight-ball in terms of acclimation, whether u have performed well or not. Then, there are always administrators and professors with hidden agendas, namely to prove that u are undeserving of your admission to the school, so ur at a disadvantage academically, right out of the gate. Then there's the assimilation to the majority culture on white campuses, and the subtle racism that exists there. The sarchastic way in which financial aid officers and other administrators communicate with u (b/c of ur ethnicity) can take a toll on u.

Then there's ur home life, the one in which the majority of ur relatives have not gone to college expect you to deal with the typical distraction of hearing about a close death (family or friend), often by unnatural causes, at least once per month, work full-time or almost full-time, commute back and forth between ur messed up community and school, and babysit ur siblings and clean up the house when u get home, b/c u come from a single-parent home and ur mom cannot afford to hire a housecleaner or babysitter. This all happens before u crack ur books open.

On top of that, ur white and Asian peers, who assume u to be inferior, (from day one) shun u as a participator in group projects, so when in-class partnering happens or study-groups are formed, u are often one of the last students picked, if u are picked at all. Therefore, this diversity initiative, the one which resulted in ur admission (at least to a small degree), ironically, does not benefit u or the other students, who mostly flock to "their own".

Then, there's the classism within the Black and Mexican campus communities, which centers around the rich  or well-off Blacks and Latinos, the fraternities and sororities, and the athletes. The porrer ethnic students, unless they are exceptionally gorgeous females, typically are not invited to social events, and parties. Sure, they can join the BSU and attend meetings, but they certainly won't be riding to parties in joe-jock's BMW (the one his already NBA'd brother or former high-school teammate bought him) on Friday nights.

URM's...true URM's, not just people who have the skin color, are outcast from all of the sects on their campuses. And if they are left to fend for themselves academically and socially, while carrying the burdens of their home and home communities to their campus, while also dealing with the pressures of getting acclimated to being a "regular student" (after hailinmg from an inferior school system), those problems become heightened and distracting.

Big ups! to any URM who makes it...who gets through all the BS, makes the honor roll/dean's list, graduates with a B+ average or better, gets over a 150 LSAT and gets into to law school. These idiots who want to pretend things are equal, that we all have the same chances, that we live in a democracy, are either liars or barbarians. Even after 911, they still don't, as we say, "get it". 

They are born with natural advantages, and benefit from them every time they walk out of their homes. But, someday, they will be forced to get it. Count on that.

All that (drivel) and you still can't be bothered to spell out "you"?
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mugatu

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Re: challenge to urm's
« Reply #52 on: March 29, 2009, 06:30:04 PM »
It works, and that's the problem. What prevents a URM from working harder in college and on the LSAT? They have the same general abilities as non-URMs, so what's the problem? I'm not from an education rich area by any means, but myself and a few others got it together and moved on, so why not everyone else? You really can do most anything if you're willing to work for it.

At what point is the job done and the meritocracy takes back over? It's not like URMs are being kept out of the system anymore, now it's mostly do to self selection. And those that do get the boost aren't overly benefited, if anything, they may be being harmed. There was an article by some Harvard professor that determined the aa bump has likely has caused something like 7,000 fewer lawyers to be produced than otherwise would have been thanks to people getting into schools they're not qualified for and washing out and people at the bottom never even getting the shot because the otherwise qualified non-URMs trickle down and wash them completely out.

If people are limited by the system, aren't they then "limited" much the same that people that are in poverty are "impoverished" people and people that are handicapped are "handicapped" people? Your point is more PC, mine is more direct. If anything, your point exposes your racist bent more than mine, as you're equating "limited" to URMs by reason of thinking it was racist on my part.

ok.

I'm pretty much over this discussion.  I hope that your achievements are well rewarded.
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Ninja1

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Re: challenge to urm's
« Reply #53 on: March 29, 2009, 06:32:20 PM »
It works, and that's the problem. What prevents a URM from working harder in college and on the LSAT? They have the same general abilities as non-URMs, so what's the problem? I'm not from an education rich area by any means, but myself and a few others got it together and moved on, so why not everyone else? You really can do most anything if you're willing to work for it.

At what point is the job done and the meritocracy takes back over? It's not like URMs are being kept out of the system anymore, now it's mostly do to self selection. And those that do get the boost aren't overly benefited, if anything, they may be being harmed. There was an article by some Harvard professor that determined the aa bump has likely has caused something like 7,000 fewer lawyers to be produced than otherwise would have been thanks to people getting into schools they're not qualified for and washing out and people at the bottom never even getting the shot because the otherwise qualified non-URMs trickle down and wash them completely out.

If people are limited by the system, aren't they then "limited" much the same that people that are in poverty are "impoverished" people and people that are handicapped are "handicapped" people? Your point is more PC, mine is more direct. If anything, your point exposes your racist bent more than mine, as you're equating "limited" to URMs by reason of thinking it was racist on my part.

ok.

I'm pretty much over this discussion.  I hope that your achievements are well rewarded.

As I do yours.
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Jamie Stringer

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Re: challenge to urm's
« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2009, 07:44:37 PM »
It works, and that's the problem. What prevents a URM from working harder in college and on the LSAT? They have the same general abilities as non-URMs, so what's the problem? I'm not from an education rich area by any means, but myself and a few others got it together and moved on, so why not everyone else? You really can do most anything if you're willing to work for it.

At what point is the job done and the meritocracy takes back over? It's not like URMs are being kept out of the system anymore, now it's mostly do to self selection. And those that do get the boost aren't overly benefited, if anything, they may be being harmed. There was an article by some Harvard professor that determined the aa bump has likely has caused something like 7,000 fewer lawyers to be produced than otherwise would have been thanks to people getting into schools they're not qualified for and washing out and people at the bottom never even getting the shot because the otherwise qualified non-URMs trickle down and wash them completely out.

If people are limited by the system, aren't they then "limited" much the same that people that are in poverty are "impoverished" people and people that are handicapped are "handicapped" people? Your point is more PC, mine is more direct. If anything, your point exposes your racist bent more than mine, as you're equating "limited" to URMs by reason of thinking it was racist on my part.

ok.

I'm pretty much over this discussion.  I hope that your achievements are well rewarded.

As I do yours unless you're a URM and therefore didn't deserve a spot at your law school.

fixt.
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bl825

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Re: challenge to urm's
« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2009, 08:18:35 PM »
So people just need to get over it?

Indeed. You either let your life be dictated by the past, or you move on and begin to dictate your future.

What a strange way of seeing things.  If I get hit by a car and I sue the driver, am I allowing my life to be dictated by the past or am I moving on and dictating my future?  And I am not trying to suggest that this is analogous, so please don't bother arguing that point.

And it's not analogous. You're within your rights to sue the driver, but you shouldn't let the fact you got hit mean that your life is forever altered by it. Even if you get seriously screwed up in said car accident, you take you cane and hobble your way on down the road. That, or you spend your life rolling out of the way anytime a car comes within 15 feet of you.

I already said it wasn't, but I imagine for different reasons.

What if by some strange turn of events, you get hit by cars over and over again?

I was just reinforcing the point.

If you're continually getting hit by cars, that probably has more to do with you than the other cars.

So you think that racism is the fault of people who belong to racial minority groups.  Got it.
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bl825

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Re: challenge to urm's
« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2009, 08:19:52 PM »
Have we seen any evidence to indicate there's ever a definite winning point anywhere in life? I mean, the best you can hope for is to retire well off and have a decent family, maybe leave some kind of legacy. And right about the time you get all that sorted out, you die from old age, death usually being a pretty clear "lose" point.

Society limits everyone's opportunities all the time. Well, unless you're a certain recent president, then it seems to insulate you from your poor decisions. But anyway, at what point did it become a social responsibility to help "limited" people up? What ever happened to the concept of people helping themselves up? URMs don't need "help" getting into good law schools, they need to do the same thing non-URMs do; get a better GPA and a better LSAT, both of which are entirely doable. In such an easily remedied situation, there's no need for help, just harder work.

There may not be winning point in any given life, but it strikes me that a winning point in societal life is that all people are equally deserving of rights and opportunity.  Both under the law and inside our heads.

It became a social responsibility to help people as soon as we started living in groups.  So, several million years ago.  Hard work doesn't help if the opportunity is not there.

Furthermore, your use of "limited" is entirely insulting.  Congratulations.

I agree. And doesn't URM bumps thwart that very goal?

Depends on at what scale your looking at. Yeah, everyone is dependent on everyone else to live in society (well, there's probably a few woodsmen out there that would dispute this, but odds are they won't be jumping in here), but I'm not talking about the fabric of society here. I'm talking about feeling compelled to drag other people up. Your talking about the net, which I think we all agree is a good thing. I'm talking about the ladder, where the dispute seems to be if everyone can climb it on their own, or if they need someone to pull them up. I'm of the opinion that if you can't climb on your own power, you're best left behind.

Thank ye, I try. If you're going to be "limited" by society, then aren't you one of the "limited"? Seems pretty spot on to me.

How would providing the same opportunity to people who may not otherwise be able to obtain it not work.

Re: ladder example.  If the ladder doesn't go all the way up, you can't use it to climb up.  Thus, we need a way to make sure that everyone is able to get to the same level the ladder goes to.  I'm not sure how much clearer I can be about this.  We live in a meritocracy, yes, but its only part of the equation. 

Finally, people aren't "limited".  Society can, however, limit opportunity.  Try using it as verb next time, rather than an adjective, and maybe everyone who reads this won't think you're completely racist.    :!

Too late.

URM's are "working harder"...harder than you will ever know. Non- URM's are either too stupid to get it or are complete barbarians who continue to lie about the conditions URM's live under. It's one or the other. The alternative is to believe that we are inferior, which is really what they are saying.

Going to college with nothing to worry about except studying, playing handball and an occasional part-time pizza or barista gig is not the same thing as going to college as a typical Black or Mexican student.

Half of the time, u have attended grossly inferior schools, to begin with, putting you behind the eight-ball in terms of acclimation, whether u have performed well or not. Then, there are always administrators and professors with hidden agendas, namely to prove that u are undeserving of your admission to the school, so ur at a disadvantage academically, right out of the gate. Then there's the assimilation to the majority culture on white campuses, and the subtle racism that exists there. The sarchastic way in which financial aid officers and other administrators communicate with u (b/c of ur ethnicity) can take a toll on u.

Then there's ur home life, the one in which the majority of ur relatives have not gone to college expect you to deal with the typical distraction of hearing about a close death (family or friend), often by unnatural causes, at least once per month, work full-time or almost full-time, commute back and forth between ur messed up community and school, and babysit ur siblings and clean up the house when u get home, b/c u come from a single-parent home and ur mom cannot afford to hire a housecleaner or babysitter. This all happens before u crack ur books open.

On top of that, ur white and Asian peers, who assume u to be inferior, (from day one) shun u as a participator in group projects, so when in-class partnering happens or study-groups are formed, u are often one of the last students picked, if u are picked at all. Therefore, this diversity initiative, the one which resulted in ur admission (at least to a small degree), ironically, does not benefit u or the other students, who mostly flock to "their own".

Then, there's the classism within the Black and Mexican campus communities, which centers around the rich  or well-off Blacks and Latinos, the fraternities and sororities, and the athletes. The porrer ethnic students, unless they are exceptionally gorgeous females, typically are not invited to social events, and parties. Sure, they can join the BSU and attend meetings, but they certainly won't be riding to parties in joe-jock's BMW (the one his already NBA'd brother or former high-school teammate bought him) on Friday nights.

URM's...true URM's, not just people who have the skin color, are outcast from all of the sects on their campuses. And if they are left to fend for themselves academically and socially, while carrying the burdens of their home and home communities to their campus, while also dealing with the pressures of getting acclimated to being a "regular student" (after hailinmg from an inferior school system), those problems become heightened and distracting.

Big ups! to any URM who makes it...who gets through all the BS, makes the honor roll/dean's list, graduates with a B+ average or better, gets over a 150 LSAT and gets into to law school. These idiots who want to pretend things are equal, that we all have the same chances, that we live in a democracy, are either liars or barbarians. Even after 911, they still don't, as we say, "get it". 

They are born with natural advantages, and benefit from them every time they walk out of their homes. But, someday, they will be forced to get it. Count on that.

I love how comfortable you are lumping all white people together.  Add some qualifiers for goodness sakes.
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Ninja1

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Re: challenge to urm's
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2009, 08:45:34 PM »
So when does AA resentment cease? After they graduate from the school they were "un/underqualified" to attend? Or does it just follow them throughout their careers, since they shouldn't be in a position to take, let alone pass, the bar exam, be granted a license, get their cushy firm job (with the help of AA, of course) and practice law? How long will it take to get over it, move on and dictate your own future?

Then it becomes more of an agitation for those that MAY have received aa, even if they themselves didn't but could conceivably have. See Clarance Thomas' take on AA.
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Ninja1

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Re: challenge to urm's
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2009, 08:46:14 PM »
It works, and that's the problem. What prevents a URM from working harder in college and on the LSAT? They have the same general abilities as non-URMs, so what's the problem? I'm not from an education rich area by any means, but myself and a few others got it together and moved on, so why not everyone else? You really can do most anything if you're willing to work for it.

At what point is the job done and the meritocracy takes back over? It's not like URMs are being kept out of the system anymore, now it's mostly do to self selection. And those that do get the boost aren't overly benefited, if anything, they may be being harmed. There was an article by some Harvard professor that determined the aa bump has likely has caused something like 7,000 fewer lawyers to be produced than otherwise would have been thanks to people getting into schools they're not qualified for and washing out and people at the bottom never even getting the shot because the otherwise qualified non-URMs trickle down and wash them completely out.

If people are limited by the system, aren't they then "limited" much the same that people that are in poverty are "impoverished" people and people that are handicapped are "handicapped" people? Your point is more PC, mine is more direct. If anything, your point exposes your racist bent more than mine, as you're equating "limited" to URMs by reason of thinking it was racist on my part.

ok.

I'm pretty much over this discussion.  I hope that your achievements are well rewarded.

As I do yours unless you're a URM and therefore didn't deserve a spot at your law school.

fixt.

Your words, not mine.
I'mma stay bumpin' till I bump my head on my tomb.

Jamie Stringer

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Re: challenge to urm's
« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2009, 08:47:37 PM »
They might be my words, but from reading this thread (and others), I don't doubt that's how you feel.
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F*cking bi+ch drinks a 1 oz bottle of goose and thinks she's French