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Author Topic: Jesus, those JD Underground people are blunt.  (Read 11377 times)

Miss P

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Re: Jesus, those JD Underground people are blunt.
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2008, 09:52:56 PM »
JD Underground has us right where they want us.... fighting amongst ourselves so they can conquer us more easily!

I'm not fighting.   ???

Sorry, it was a poor attempt at a joke.

No worries!  Sorry I'm too steeped in my paper and, er, not studying for admin to know what's going on or have a sense of humor about anything.  I just wanted to make sure that no one was taking my post the wrong way.
That's cool how you referenced a case.

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JayCLS

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Re: Jesus, those JD Underground people are blunt.
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2008, 01:21:20 AM »
[off-topic sanctimony]

If I could pay my bills and work at a non-profit, I totally would. In fact as soon as I pay off my loans I intend to do that (and actually many non-profit jobs are often harder to get than firm jobs).

This isn't personal -- I know nothing about you or your commitment to pro bono work, your other debts, your family obligations, etc. -- but I read this a lot, and I feel the need to comment.

Most lawyers who work at non-profits are paying their bills, and you probably could too.  It's not easy (which is the real problem for most people in your situation) but it's doable, especially if you come from a school with a good LRAP program (and CLS has perhaps the best in the country right now).  The new federal loan forgiveness program will also make a huge difference in the lives of public interest lawyers.

I don't judge people who choose to work at firms.  It's perfectly reasonable to want to make a lot of money or do a certain kind of work, especially if it's what you expected to do when you went to law school in the first place.  Only you can decide what you want out of your career.  To me, it's more important to spend my working hours doing something that I enjoy doing.  To you, it may be more important to live in a nice building in your off hours.  These are not moral issues; they're personal lifestyle choices.  But please don't pretend that your decision to work at a firm is any less of a luxury than my decision to do what I love.  This is not like college where the rich kids spend their summers volunteering in international non-profits while the rest of us toil for minimum wage to make our EFCs.  Almost all of us have ridiculous amounts of debt that we have to pay off.  We've just reached different conclusions about which sacrifices we're willing to make to do so.

[/sanctimony]*

*Yeah, right.   :P

Point taken. I'm not really interested in a non-profit, but government work which requires a few years of law firm work before you are qualified. 

In terms of LRAP...you won't find that at most Tier 2 schools which was the context of our conversation...but you make a good point.

P.S. I sort of tacked that edit onto the end. It was poorly thought out. I did mean to say that I think that public interest jobs can be harder to get/are often more sought after than firm jobs. I think it really is a life choice.

Miss P

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Re: Jesus, those JD Underground people are blunt.
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2008, 01:35:07 AM »
Point taken. I'm not really interested in a non-profit, but government work which requires a few years of law firm work before you are qualified. 

In terms of LRAP...you won't find that at most Tier 2 schools which was the context of our conversation...but you make a good point.

P.S. I sort of tacked that edit onto the end. It was poorly thought out. I did mean to say that I think that public interest jobs can be harder to get/are often more sought after than firm jobs. I think it really is a life choice.

Cool.  And you're totally right about LRAP at lower-tier schools, and I understand why, in the context of this thread, it might be worthwhile to talk about how difficult it is to pay back loans on a public interest salary.

I also really appreciate the recognition in your P.S.  Too many people around here assume that all do-gooder jobs are bottom-feeding, but it's just not true.  And even for those bottom-feeding positions with low entry qualifications, there is a huge amount of competition from other people with mediocre records. :)
That's cool how you referenced a case.

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I'm so far from the end of my tether right now that I reckon I could knit myself some socks with the slack.

JayCLS

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Re: Jesus, those JD Underground people are blunt.
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2008, 01:50:00 AM »

See this is what I am talking about. Thatís not how it really is, not at all. Not here, not in my experience. We donít have the need to fill the large law firms with top grads, there are more local grades at the top local firms here than otherwise. Its not just the top 5%, it goes much deeper than that. I know, Iíve been working in this market for four+ years. But people will tell me, and others, that I am wrong with what I see, with the market I know. And they have nothing to base that on but what they see at T14 schools. Have you ever tried to get a job in Denver? But your going to tell me how it works, because thatís how you think you know how it works, but its NOT. Its much more about who you know than where you go. Itís a very small legal market and knowing the right people can get you jobs people would think T2 grads canít. How you find jobs in markets like this is very different from  how you do it in NYC.

We arenít NYC, we donít have the same pressures you have. How hiring works here, and Iím going to project in many mid markets, is not how it does there. And people giving advice thatís wrong (again not intentionally, but because they just donít know any better) is a huge problem. Voices like mine, who can better tell people what its like to actually look for a job are drowned out by people saying this is whatís its like. Iím telling you from first hand personal experience its not, but because you got to CLS someone is going to believe you, and Iím afraid that people on here make bad choices because they try and emulate what works at your school down here, because thatís all they hear.

The vast majority of my classmates donít get jobs from OCI, but thatís how you guys do it. Its bad advice for people from T2s to think that, but thatís what they get told because thatís mostly hat they hear on here. People need to hear that, they need to understand that what works for you guys is actually a BAD plan of attck down here, it will lead to less offers, not more. Its not near as hard as some people think to get a decent job out of a teir 2 SO LONG AS THEY DO IT RIGHT. The biggest problem is most don't becuase they try a copy what works at top schools, puting all thier eegs in the OCI basket, thats just totally the wrong approach to take, but thats how most of the psoetrs on here got jobs so they think thats how they should do it. I'm not some great sucess story, I just figured out what works and what does not, if more people did more people would have better luck finding jobs.



Alright. Where to begin.

#1. I find it interesting that the crux of your argument is that you need to understand individual markets, but then you lump all mid-markets together. The logic doesn't follow.

#2. I qualified my statements when I made my argument. There were two qualifications. The first was that the jobs I was discussing were BigLaw. The second was that they be $160K jobs. Again, I did not say that these were the only desirable jobs, but I said that I think many people who go to lower ranked law schools are deluded into thinking they are going to professional school and will be able to score a job at this salary when they graduate. In order for your counter-point to hold water, Denver needs to have BigLaw firms, associates making 160K salaries, AND these associates need to be coming from Tier 2 schools. So let's look at the Denver market statistically. According to NALP there are 34 firms with Denver offices. Of these, I'd say there are a few that I'd agree qualified as Biglaw. Firms like A&P, Gibson, Hogan & Hartson, Greenberg, Dorsey, Perkins, Patton Boggs. Of those, I am not sure which ones pay 160K in their Denver office, and I am really not going to have the time to look at every one now. So if one firm is more representative for your point and pays 160K then by all means, point it out to me. I looked at A&P and Gibson.  

The majority of associates at Gibson are from top 30 law schools. A&P had 5/12 from T14 schools and 3/5 partners from T14. I'd also note that these summer classes are very small. A&P hires 1 or 2 a year. Gibson was fewer than 10. So I fail to see how your chances from a local school (Colorado has how many per class?) would be that great.  Also, given the sizable numbers of T30 and T14 students going to the Denver offices of these firms, I'd assume that the firms place some weight on your law school's reputation. The fact is that there aren't that many Harvard, Columbia, Yale, Stanford students who search for jobs in Denver, so the market is less competitive between local schools and the T14.  

That being said, the chances of you landing one of these few jobs from any law school in Colorado are still much lower than those from a T14 school. And even if we expand -> How many students from your law school got jobs in the Vault 100? What is the % of students who land such jobs and of those what % are on partnership track/are associates and not staff attorneys.

I'm not trying to brag, or be an ass, but I am saying that when you say the things you say you sound like you are denying facts that are obvious to most people who can do 2 to 3 minutes of research. It makes you sound as though you are bitter. For someone who tries to act like prestige doesn't matter, you spend a lot of time trying to debunk prestige as a factor. If it doesn't matter to you, then why are you constantly putting other schools down?

Another thing that bothers me about T2 schools is that often they'll pump out stats on where their graduates work listing them at top firms all over the country.  What they fail to note is that many of those graduates are staff attorneys/not on the associate/partner track. That is a big distinction.

Again, I'm going to qualify this by saying that I'm not saying that these jobs are the only ones that count. But I am saying that if you want one, it is much better to go to a T1 school than a T2 school and it is silly to argue otherwise. Those are the stats. I'm also not saying that you can't ever get a good job from a T2...absolutely you can. I am sure there are some mid-level/small firms in Denver that are great places to work and everyone loves them. What I am saying is that the odds are much lower coming from a T2 school when trying to land certain kinds of jobs. That's all.

JayCLS

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Re: Jesus, those JD Underground people are blunt.
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2008, 01:54:47 AM »
Point taken. I'm not really interested in a non-profit, but government work which requires a few years of law firm work before you are qualified. 

In terms of LRAP...you won't find that at most Tier 2 schools which was the context of our conversation...but you make a good point.

P.S. I sort of tacked that edit onto the end. It was poorly thought out. I did mean to say that I think that public interest jobs can be harder to get/are often more sought after than firm jobs. I think it really is a life choice.

Cool.  And you're totally right about LRAP at lower-tier schools, and I understand why, in the context of this thread, it might be worthwhile to talk about how difficult it is to pay back loans on a public interest salary.

I also really appreciate the recognition in your P.S.  Too many people around here assume that all do-gooder jobs are bottom-feeding, but it's just not true.  And even for those bottom-feeding positions with low entry qualifications, there is a huge amount of competition from other people with mediocre records. :)

Yeah I mean I totally agree with you/am on the same page. I just was focusing on one type of job here not because I think BigLaw is more prestigious but I am trying to point out the +1 factor that is the reality of law firm rankings. I guess what I mean is from a lower tiered law school you are most likely going to have access primarily to lower ranked/smaller firm jobs. If you go to a higher ranked school you'll have access to BigLaw...then in the top 3-6 really you have a chance at a SCOTUS clerkship or that Wachtell associateship (if you are amazingly brilliant too). With public interest I am sure it tracks similarly. The top jobs (ACLU etc.) go mostly to top tier law school grads and then track down. That was the only point I was trying to make.  If you have your heart set on a SCOTUS clerkship and the only school you get into is Cooley...then maybe you should consider your other options.  Is it impossible to get a SCOTUS clerkship from Cooley? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. If you come up with some new legal theory no one has ever thought of then yeah maybe you could land it, but the odds are stacked against you. Likewise, from a tier 3 school can you get a biglaw job? Yeah sure you can. People do all the time. Is it relatively rare? Absolutely. That's all I am saying. I just think people should have a realistic view of their options when they are shopping law schools/possible careers.

Matthies

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Re: Jesus, those JD Underground people are blunt.
« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2008, 08:58:57 AM »

See this is what I am talking about. Thatís not how it really is, not at all. Not here, not in my experience. We donít have the need to fill the large law firms with top grads, there are more local grades at the top local firms here than otherwise. Its not just the top 5%, it goes much deeper than that. I know, Iíve been working in this market for four+ years. But people will tell me, and others, that I am wrong with what I see, with the market I know. And they have nothing to base that on but what they see at T14 schools. Have you ever tried to get a job in Denver? But your going to tell me how it works, because thatís how you think you know how it works, but its NOT. Its much more about who you know than where you go. Itís a very small legal market and knowing the right people can get you jobs people would think T2 grads canít. How you find jobs in markets like this is very different from  how you do it in NYC.

We arenít NYC, we donít have the same pressures you have. How hiring works here, and Iím going to project in many mid markets, is not how it does there. And people giving advice thatís wrong (again not intentionally, but because they just donít know any better) is a huge problem. Voices like mine, who can better tell people what its like to actually look for a job are drowned out by people saying this is whatís its like. Iím telling you from first hand personal experience its not, but because you got to CLS someone is going to believe you, and Iím afraid that people on here make bad choices because they try and emulate what works at your school down here, because thatís all they hear.

The vast majority of my classmates donít get jobs from OCI, but thatís how you guys do it. Its bad advice for people from T2s to think that, but thatís what they get told because thatís mostly hat they hear on here. People need to hear that, they need to understand that what works for you guys is actually a BAD plan of attck down here, it will lead to less offers, not more. Its not near as hard as some people think to get a decent job out of a teir 2 SO LONG AS THEY DO IT RIGHT. The biggest problem is most don't becuase they try a copy what works at top schools, puting all thier eegs in the OCI basket, thats just totally the wrong approach to take, but thats how most of the psoetrs on here got jobs so they think thats how they should do it. I'm not some great sucess story, I just figured out what works and what does not, if more people did more people would have better luck finding jobs.



Alright. Where to begin.

#1. I find it interesting that the crux of your argument is that you need to understand individual markets, but then you lump all mid-markets together. The logic doesn't follow.

#2. I qualified my statements when I made my argument. There were two qualifications. The first was that the jobs I was discussing were BigLaw. The second was that they be $160K jobs. Again, I did not say that these were the only desirable jobs, but I said that I think many people who go to lower ranked law schools are deluded into thinking they are going to professional school and will be able to score a job at this salary when they graduate. In order for your counter-point to hold water, Denver needs to have BigLaw firms, associates making 160K salaries, AND these associates need to be coming from Tier 2 schools. So let's look at the Denver market statistically. According to NALP there are 34 firms with Denver offices. Of these, I'd say there are a few that I'd agree qualified as Biglaw. Firms like A&P, Gibson, Hogan & Hartson, Greenberg, Dorsey, Perkins, Patton Boggs. Of those, I am not sure which ones pay 160K in their Denver office, and I am really not going to have the time to look at every one now. So if one firm is more representative for your point and pays 160K then by all means, point it out to me. I looked at A&P and Gibson.  

The majority of associates at Gibson are from top 30 law schools. A&P had 5/12 from T14 schools and 3/5 partners from T14. I'd also note that these summer classes are very small. A&P hires 1 or 2 a year. Gibson was fewer than 10. So I fail to see how your chances from a local school (Colorado has how many per class?) would be that great.  Also, given the sizable numbers of T30 and T14 students going to the Denver offices of these firms, I'd assume that the firms place some weight on your law school's reputation. The fact is that there aren't that many Harvard, Columbia, Yale, Stanford students who search for jobs in Denver, so the market is less competitive between local schools and the T14.  

That being said, the chances of you landing one of these few jobs from any law school in Colorado are still much lower than those from a T14 school. And even if we expand -> How many students from your law school got jobs in the Vault 100? What is the % of students who land such jobs and of those what % are on partnership track/are associates and not staff attorneys.

I'm not trying to brag, or be an ass, but I am saying that when you say the things you say you sound like you are denying facts that are obvious to most people who can do 2 to 3 minutes of research. It makes you sound as though you are bitter. For someone who tries to act like prestige doesn't matter, you spend a lot of time trying to debunk prestige as a factor. If it doesn't matter to you, then why are you constantly putting other schools down?

Another thing that bothers me about T2 schools is that often they'll pump out stats on where their graduates work listing them at top firms all over the country.  What they fail to note is that many of those graduates are staff attorneys/not on the associate/partner track. That is a big distinction.

Again, I'm going to qualify this by saying that I'm not saying that these jobs are the only ones that count. But I am saying that if you want one, it is much better to go to a T1 school than a T2 school and it is silly to argue otherwise. Those are the stats. I'm also not saying that you can't ever get a good job from a T2...absolutely you can. I am sure there are some mid-level/small firms in Denver that are great places to work and everyone loves them. What I am saying is that the odds are much lower coming from a T2 school when trying to land certain kinds of jobs. That's all.

Again, do you not see your making assumptions here that I never amde, that the goal of most T2 studnts is to get these jobs you think they all want. My entire point has been, lost I guess, that this is not the reality for most T2 studnts, and they KNOW this already. Your making an arguemnt that's obviouse Iím not arguing with you that for 160k NYC jobs all of what you sat is true. Where do you see this is any of my posts? You don't, your just assuming that's what I am saying, its not. But I think you assume most students go to school with that in mind so thatís where you set you bar as defining those jobs. That simply not true, most law students will never have these jobs. Let me spell it out for what I think the differences are between what I am saying and what youíre saying, and try to set out from what you want to what I am trying to say. This is good advice for students not going to T14 schools:

1.   Pick you school based on location/where you want to practice
2.   Do not go to any regional school with the intent of leaving that region
3.   Its unwise to go to school in say Colorado if you want to work in NYC
4.   You lose the benefits a lower ranked, but local school has in the market if you tgry to leave
5.   Do not rely on OCI for your primary job search
6.   Make connections in your local legal market
7.   Apply to firms that target you school and alumni

This is not advice and helps no one ďYou canít get a big law job from a T4 making NYC salaryĒ It simply states the facts, but does nothing to help those going to these schools find out what works.

The list goes on about strategies that are specific to lower ranked schools for most mid markets. What you are consistently talking about is students who think they can go to T2 schools and break into top firms at NYC market. I donít disagree with you about that at all. But your advice, that it canít be done (and I agree you should not do it) does not apply to most law students at these schools. A minority of law student may go to law school with that dream from a T2, but most donít. Iím not saying what your saying is wrong, Iím saying it does not apply to most law students at these school, but finding advice that does apply to them is scare.
By the way, only H&H is the only one you listed really considered a local big law. I also know the make up of this past summers class there 5 DU, 4 CU, 1 WY and a Uva student. Its like that every year. Like I said Iím not going to argue with you about kids who think they can got to a T4 in CA and get a NYC biglaw job are living in a fantasy land. But what you keep saying over and over is the goal of most students simply is not. And saying you canít get NYC big law is not advice, and its not helping, its just stating a position.  I udnerstand that this is the ceter of your world, so it what you focus on, what I am trying to say is tep back and see that its not the center of the world for a lot of studnets, they know this, they need advice that applies to them.
*In clinical studies, Matthies was well tolerated, but women who are pregnant, nursing or might become pregnant should not take or handle Matthies due to a rare, but serious side effect called him having to make child support payments.

Matthies

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Re: Jesus, those JD Underground people are blunt.
« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2008, 09:12:30 AM »
Point taken. I'm not really interested in a non-profit, but government work which requires a few years of law firm work before you are qualified. 

In terms of LRAP...you won't find that at most Tier 2 schools which was the context of our conversation...but you make a good point.

P.S. I sort of tacked that edit onto the end. It was poorly thought out. I did mean to say that I think that public interest jobs can be harder to get/are often more sought after than firm jobs. I think it really is a life choice.

Cool.  And you're totally right about LRAP at lower-tier schools, and I understand why, in the context of this thread, it might be worthwhile to talk about how difficult it is to pay back loans on a public interest salary.

I also really appreciate the recognition in your P.S.  Too many people around here assume that all do-gooder jobs are bottom-feeding, but it's just not true.  And even for those bottom-feeding positions with low entry qualifications, there is a huge amount of competition from other people with mediocre records. :)

Yeah I mean I totally agree with you/am on the same page. I just was focusing on one type of job here not because I think BigLaw is more prestigious but I am trying to point out the +1 factor that is the reality of law firm rankings. I guess what I mean is from a lower tiered law school you are most likely going to have access primarily to lower ranked/smaller firm jobs. If you go to a higher ranked school you'll have access to BigLaw...then in the top 3-6 really you have a chance at a SCOTUS clerkship or that Wachtell associateship (if you are amazingly brilliant too). With public interest I am sure it tracks similarly. The top jobs (ACLU etc.) go mostly to top tier law school grads and then track down. That was the only point I was trying to make.  If you have your heart set on a SCOTUS clerkship and the only school you get into is Cooley...then maybe you should consider your other options.  Is it impossible to get a SCOTUS clerkship from Cooley? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. If you come up with some new legal theory no one has ever thought of then yeah maybe you could land it, but the odds are stacked against you. Likewise, from a tier 3 school can you get a biglaw job? Yeah sure you can. People do all the time. Is it relatively rare? Absolutely. That's all I am saying. I just think people should have a realistic view of their options when they are shopping law schools/possible careers.

This probably would have been a better post to qoute, becuase I don't disagree with anything here, excpt I think there are far fewwer people at this schools wth those goals than are at your school. Hence why I say what you think may be good advice for them, may not be at all. People have diffrent goals, people need to have realsitic goals too, but people also need to underatnd that thier goals and those around the may not be shared by everyone as unverisally as they think.

I think, we, both us, are surrounded by people of like thinking at our schools, so its natural for us to infer other students think the same way/have the same goals at other schools. I certainly would think other students at other T14 schools have similar goals to you and your classmates, all I am saying is I think people at similar schools to mine probably have similar goals, and if thatís true, then at least at my school I donít know anyone perusing the types of jobs they would if they went to your school.  I think to assume that they are is a false assumption, and the only really point I have been trying to make. Yes there are those with pie in the ski dreams, but those are the minority, and at least in my experience people at my school are striving for jobs they can get, not to be a SCOTUS clerk. And hence people need advice from people in thier shoes, not from people who have a compleatly diffrent reality/goal set. 
*In clinical studies, Matthies was well tolerated, but women who are pregnant, nursing or might become pregnant should not take or handle Matthies due to a rare, but serious side effect called him having to make child support payments.

Matthies

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Re: Jesus, those JD Underground people are blunt.
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2008, 09:15:31 AM »

See this is what I am talking about. Thatís not how it really is, not at all. Not here, not in my experience. We donít have the need to fill the large law firms with top grads, there are more local grades at the top local firms here than otherwise. Its not just the top 5%, it goes much deeper than that. I know, Iíve been working in this market for four+ years. But people will tell me, and others, that I am wrong with what I see, with the market I know. And they have nothing to base that on but what they see at T14 schools. Have you ever tried to get a job in Denver? But your going to tell me how it works, because thatís how you think you know how it works, but its NOT. Its much more about who you know than where you go. Itís a very small legal market and knowing the right people can get you jobs people would think T2 grads canít. How you find jobs in markets like this is very different from  how you do it in NYC.

We arenít NYC, we donít have the same pressures you have. How hiring works here, and Iím going to project in many mid markets, is not how it does there. And people giving advice thatís wrong (again not intentionally, but because they just donít know any better) is a huge problem. Voices like mine, who can better tell people what its like to actually look for a job are drowned out by people saying this is whatís its like. Iím telling you from first hand personal experience its not, but because you got to CLS someone is going to believe you, and Iím afraid that people on here make bad choices because they try and emulate what works at your school down here, because thatís all they hear.

The vast majority of my classmates donít get jobs from OCI, but thatís how you guys do it. Its bad advice for people from T2s to think that, but thatís what they get told because thatís mostly hat they hear on here. People need to hear that, they need to understand that what works for you guys is actually a BAD plan of attck down here, it will lead to less offers, not more. Its not near as hard as some people think to get a decent job out of a teir 2 SO LONG AS THEY DO IT RIGHT. The biggest problem is most don't becuase they try a copy what works at top schools, puting all thier eegs in the OCI basket, thats just totally the wrong approach to take, but thats how most of the psoetrs on here got jobs so they think thats how they should do it. I'm not some great sucess story, I just figured out what works and what does not, if more people did more people would have better luck finding jobs.



I'm not trying to brag, or be an ass, but I am saying that when you say the things you say you sound like you are denying facts that are obvious to most people who can do 2 to 3 minutes of research. It makes you sound as though you are bitter. For someone who tries to act like prestige doesn't matter, you spend a lot of time trying to debunk prestige as a factor. If it doesn't matter to you, then why are you constantly putting other schools down?


Actually I donít constantly bash schools, in fact its rare that I do unless Iím trying to make the point that people should not take themselves so seriously. If you look back at my posts Iíll put the advice I give against anyone elseís here. I also donít get butt hurt when some makes fun of my school. Maybe its because Iím older, and have other things in my life Iím proud of, but I donít get myself worth from the school I go to. Nor do I hold that above other people (unlike you whose first response was to infer my lower job prospects). Nor do I wish I was at any other school, Iím perfectly content where I am. I do however, and will point out when other people have a double standard about this. Look you should be proud of your school, you should be proud of your accomplishments, but if you get upset when someone pokes fun at you for it, then donít be a hypocrite and do the same thing to them. If you can't laugh at yourself then don't laugh at other people.
*In clinical studies, Matthies was well tolerated, but women who are pregnant, nursing or might become pregnant should not take or handle Matthies due to a rare, but serious side effect called him having to make child support payments.

nealric

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Re: Jesus, those JD Underground people are blunt.
« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2008, 09:39:53 AM »
Quote
By the way, only H&H is the only one you listed really considered a local big law.

I think he was talking about Hogan & Hartson. I assume you are talking about Holland & Hart. Jay CLS seems to be operating on a different assumption of what constitutes biglaw.
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Matthies

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Re: Jesus, those JD Underground people are blunt.
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2008, 09:48:05 AM »
Quote
By the way, only H&H is the only one you listed really considered a local big law.

I think he was talking about Hogan & Hartson. I assume you are talking about Holland & Hart. Jay CLS seems to be operating on a different assumption of what constitutes biglaw.

Correct, and a good point to make. When I am talking about ďbig lawĒ and what I refer to when talking about big law in Denver are the biggest firms in Denver that pay market rate, not necessarily the biggest firms in the country who have satellite offices here. My classmates perusing that have universally targeted local big law, not national big law, so if that was a point of confusion I apologize. 
*In clinical studies, Matthies was well tolerated, but women who are pregnant, nursing or might become pregnant should not take or handle Matthies due to a rare, but serious side effect called him having to make child support payments.