Jesus, those JD Underground people are blunt.

[dashrashi]

Matthies? Didn't this just happen last week in SFLSD? And it was pointed out to you that while you feel like the Lone Ranger, the people whose schools you denigrate are not the posters who make asinine comments a la wiimote? So maybe the shotgun approach, wherein you spray everyone who goes to schools that the prestige-whores like with your joking/whatever vitriol, isn't necessarily hitting the right targets, in that it's hitting all the students at those schools, including the ones who aren't fucktard douchebags like wiimote et al?

I say this with love, because I know that you/your school/your choices get a lot of *&^% on the board/internet/etc as a whole. But...it's not me, or Cady, or tm, etc, who are dishing out the *&^%... And I don't think we particularly turn a blind eye to it, either. Maybe you disagree. Entirely possible. I don't know.

I suppose it may be relevant that I do not know the law and am screwed for the Bar, on account of all my exams talk about how to rewrite the 4th Amendment and/or what System Justification Theory has to do with tort law, inasmuch as truth is a defense to the "defeat w/ actual legal questions" accusation. But no matter.

[JayCLS]

I actually don’t disagree with this at all. I think your completely correct. I do however differ with you on if should T4 schools exists, I think they should, so long as the students attending them understand what they are getting into. I also see this as the responsibility of the individual, rather than the schools some how tricking them into thinking they have a shot at something they don’t. I tend to think its better for legal representation when people have a choice among lawyers, so I’m not support of closing any schools down.

Where I do disagree with you is that I think people, primarily those at T14s on this board because they happen to be over represented (compared to the number on non t14 law students) talk about the ramifications of going to a lower ranked school like they know what those are. I’m not a T14 student, you won’t see me giving advice on where to apply to get that big law job in NYC. I would have no idea what I’m talking about. But there are many on this board who will tell you what MY job prospects are, from MY school, in MY market who have never even been here. There are a few of us who regularly post from lower ranked schools on here, and universally I think if you took a poll they would all say how people describe it is not how it really is.

I know my market. I know what jobs I’ve had, what jobs I’ve been offered and where many of my classmates are working. Several in big law, several in federal clerkships, in fact I don’t know anyone of my friends or classmates who don’t have jobs. But you would not know that from reading the posts here by people who don’t go to my school or live in my market but will tell you what my job prospects are like they are experts.
That’s the big problem I have with LSD. There is some great info out there, and some experts in their schools and markets, and people should listen to them. But there are others who think just because that’s the way it works around them it works like that everywhere. Or think that just because that’s what its like at their school its like that everywhere. Look at JD Underground, look at TLS, look who the people are and where they go to school, its more T14 than not, and many times the advice they give to non T14 kids is just wrong or bad (not necessarily because they do it on purpose, but that they buy in to the hype when they really don’t know any better).

I spend a lot of my time on this board shooting down misinformation posted, by probably well meaning folks, who just really don’t know what they are talking about. There are generalities, sure, but things are very different in NYC than they are here, I would never try to give advice to someone looking for a job there. But its also very different than the doom and gloom that some people in NYC market think lawyers from other law schools are experiencing. Its not near as bad here as people from far off cites and law schools like to tell me it is.

Someone has to counter that, I wish more people would, but when you’re faced with thread after thread of people bashing your schools, or ever time you try and give a reasoned response the retort is always “that’s’ why you go to X school” would you want to come here and put up with that just to help people out? No, most would not. Like to admit it or not this board is elitist, it part because the lower school bashing is tolerated and drives those people away so that’s all that is left is mostly T14 kids. People don’t necessarily do it on purpose, (some do) but they don’t counter it either.  In my view is a detriment to the majority of law students out there who could use some advice that actually pertains to them, but instead get trash talked and stop posting. Hence I, from time to time, through it back in peoples faces. But it never ceases to amaze me how upset some people, often times the same people who trash other schools get when it gets turned around on them (and I’m not saying you have ever done this, this is my first encounter with you, and you seem to not be that type other than the completely logical response you had to me trashing your school).

 People will turn a blind eye to people trashing any school lower ranked then theirs, but boy do they get all riled up if you do it to them. They forget that they are doing it, either purposefully or by their silence to other people every day. It seems hypocritical to me, and sometimes I try to point that out by throwing some of it back at them. As Tasha said, I caught one, you just got mixed up into something bigger than you realized at the time.

Actually, I think that T4 schools should exist. I never said they shouldn't. I said that I think the for-profit ones take advantage of people...which many of them do. There are unaccredited schools that you can't even take the bar out of (maybe I mean lower than T4 even). That really bothers me.

Second, I'm not saying that you don't know what YOU are capable of. Just because you did something or the top 5% of your class did something (or you know a few people who did something), does not mean that someone should expect to be able to go to a T2 school and have a very good chance of being able to accomplish that as well.  What bothers me is that someone would invest 130-180K on a law school education not knowing that realistically they aren't going to have a great chance at getting a 160K a year job out of x school. They might think that their chances are better based on the few success stories (such as yourself) on this board who tell them that they don't need to go to x and x school to get a certain kind of job.  Sure they don't NEED to go to a T14 school...or even a T30, but good luck being in the top 5 people in your class and absolutely nailing one of the 3 interviews you get with BigLaw firms.

If you want to work in BigLaw the facts about hiring are what they are. It has nothing to do with your perspective. Or my perspective. Go look on any firm website and run a search...it is simple statistics based on firm hiring quotas. We can argue about whether or not the fact that a firm will have a quota to hire 30 Harvard kids and 1 kid from Suffolk Law is fair, or right, or whatever, but that is another conversation.

Now I'm not saying people who go to T2 schools aren't deserving. I have a friend who had near a 4.0 in college who goes to a "T2" school out west and can't get a job that pays him over 75K a year base. Do I think he deserves a 160K job? Sure, absolutely. I think he is very smart. Do I think he'll get it? No. Did he think he'd get one when he entered law school. Yes. That's the problem I have with the system the way it is right now.

At the end of the day, you can blame me and run around saying that students at T14 schools are so stupid and undeserving, but that won't change reality. It won't make law firms more likely to hire based on a pattern that isn't centered around a silly magazine article. I agree that the system may be off, but we should at least be able to recognize the game as it exists.

EDIT: One thing to add. I recognize that everyone may not care about or want a 160K job. They may have other ways of paying off their loans, they might not care, they might get a free ride from some school. That's great. If I could pay my bills and work at a non-profit, I totally would. In fact as soon as I pay off my loans I intend to do that (and actually many non-profit jobs are often harder to get than firm jobs). I am simply talking about being able to match your goals with your school choice and being realistic about it.

[Matthies]

Matthies? Didn't this just happen last week in SFLSD? And it was pointed out to you that while you feel like the Lone Ranger, the people whose schools you denigrate are not the posters who make asinine comments a la wiimote? So maybe the shotgun approach, wherein you spray everyone who goes to schools that the prestige-whores like with your joking/whatever vitriol, isn't necessarily hitting the right targets, in that it's hitting all the students at those schools, including the ones who aren't fucktard douchebags like wiimote et al?

I say this with love, because I know that you/your school/your choices get a lot of poo on the board/internet/etc as a whole. But...it's not me, or Cady, or tm, etc, who are dishing out the poo... And I don't think we particularly turn a blind eye to it, either. Maybe you disagree. Entirely possible. I don't know.

I suppose it may be relevant that I do not know the law and am screwed for the Bar, on account of all my exams talk about how to rewrite the 4th Amendment and/or what System Justification Theory has to do with tort law, inasmuch as truth is a defense to the "defeat w/ actual legal questions" accusation. But no matter.

Dash,

I agree with you that my poking fun at X or Y school is hitting, and I think I see now, hurting, unintended bystanders. But I have never, in any seriousness personally denigrated you, Cady or TM, nor your accomplishments.
Nor have I stood by on the sidelines when any of you have been attacked for any reason. But I can’t help but see this thread as indicative of an extremely prevalent trend on this board. That is its OK, either through direct action or silence to make fun of schools, to have as the standard response “that’s why you got to X, or good luck at Y” and then turn the tables in the sprit of satire, and have people say its different when I do it.
Call a spade a spade, its sucks when you’re the target of anyone’s jokes. I understand that, I agree with that, I know I am doing that when I do what I do. But I don’t do it with mall intent, and maybe my methods go misunderstood by everyone but me. But you can’t, I can’t, help but see a double standard here. An almost universal acceptance, either by participation or silence, of the status quo. Maybe you don’t see it as clearly as I do, maybe I am seeing it more than I should. But look at the regular posters, who still posts here from lower ranked schools? How many posters have been driven off, I get the PMs, thanks for your advice by I’m not going to post on LSD any more because of all the vitriol. I’ve gotten dozens of them over the years.

Like it or not, intentionally or not, LSD is unwelcoming to people who don’t fit the mold, and it re-enforces that when people don’t make waves. I sometimes make waves, and those waves sometimes hurt people, and for that I am sorry. But I can’t help but think we would not be having this conversation if I was trashing TTTs. No one here would be offended, but save me and a few others, its certainly would not have garnered the attention it has, and I doubt you are TM would come in to voice your displeasure. Not, of course, because you condone that behavior, but because as happens every day on here it goes unnoticed by those not targeted. Its seems its only noticed by the magority, when they are the target.

And that I see has part of the problem, and where I see the double standard. No, you don’t trash schools, TM does not trash schools, lots of people don’t but they don’t stay anything about it either. Its goes un noticed because it does not affect them personally, but it does effect a lot of people, people who don’t stay on LSD. Not at least until I turn the tables, then its noticeable. Well its noticeable all over this board if you just look for it. Its noticeable, and in my view well tolerated, to the point that its driving [people away who could really use the advice here.

Its not top law schools, its not T14 law schools, its law school discussion, but its not open equally to everyone. There is an unwritten, but re-enforced code, stay within that code and your fine, no one will complain, step out of that code, even if its to try and point out something obvious to you and others in your position see on a daily basis and there is a backlash. No one likes to be the but of the joke, but it sure seems its more OK for some people to be the but of the joke than others here. Sometimes I think you need to put the shoe on the other foot, maybe this thread did that in the wrong way, but it is no different than what 100s of posters see here everyday. Point that out, bring it to the surface and people start getting upset.

Rightfully so I guess. I’m sorry if I personally offended anyone, that was never my intent, I have a pretty fierce self deprecating sense of humor, I forget that not everyone has that, and some people may think I am honestly making fun of them rather than trying to be sarcastic, for that I apologize. I don’t mean to belittle anyone accomplishments, the hard work they have done, or do, or the hard work they will have to do.  There is no one on this thread that I think is stupid or undeserving of anything they have earned. Nor do I believe you have it any easier than anyone else. I’m sorry if I upset anyone. I guess I am as guilty as that of what I seek to prevent.

[Matthies]

I actually don’t disagree with this at all. I think your completely correct. I do however differ with you on if should T4 schools exists, I think they should, so long as the students attending them understand what they are getting into. I also see this as the responsibility of the individual, rather than the schools some how tricking them into thinking they have a shot at something they don’t. I tend to think its better for legal representation when people have a choice among lawyers, so I’m not support of closing any schools down.

Where I do disagree with you is that I think people, primarily those at T14s on this board because they happen to be over represented (compared to the number on non t14 law students) talk about the ramifications of going to a lower ranked school like they know what those are. I’m not a T14 student, you won’t see me giving advice on where to apply to get that big law job in NYC. I would have no idea what I’m talking about. But there are many on this board who will tell you what MY job prospects are, from MY school, in MY market who have never even been here. There are a few of us who regularly post from lower ranked schools on here, and universally I think if you took a poll they would all say how people describe it is not how it really is.

I know my market. I know what jobs I’ve had, what jobs I’ve been offered and where many of my classmates are working. Several in big law, several in federal clerkships, in fact I don’t know anyone of my friends or classmates who don’t have jobs. But you would not know that from reading the posts here by people who don’t go to my school or live in my market but will tell you what my job prospects are like they are experts.
That’s the big problem I have with LSD. There is some great info out there, and some experts in their schools and markets, and people should listen to them. But there are others who think just because that’s the way it works around them it works like that everywhere. Or think that just because that’s what its like at their school its like that everywhere. Look at JD Underground, look at TLS, look who the people are and where they go to school, its more T14 than not, and many times the advice they give to non T14 kids is just wrong or bad (not necessarily because they do it on purpose, but that they buy in to the hype when they really don’t know any better).

I spend a lot of my time on this board shooting down misinformation posted, by probably well meaning folks, who just really don’t know what they are talking about. There are generalities, sure, but things are very different in NYC than they are here, I would never try to give advice to someone looking for a job there. But its also very different than the doom and gloom that some people in NYC market think lawyers from other law schools are experiencing. Its not near as bad here as people from far off cites and law schools like to tell me it is.

Someone has to counter that, I wish more people would, but when you’re faced with thread after thread of people bashing your schools, or ever time you try and give a reasoned response the retort is always “that’s’ why you go to X school” would you want to come here and put up with that just to help people out? No, most would not. Like to admit it or not this board is elitist, it part because the lower school bashing is tolerated and drives those people away so that’s all that is left is mostly T14 kids. People don’t necessarily do it on purpose, (some do) but they don’t counter it either.  In my view is a detriment to the majority of law students out there who could use some advice that actually pertains to them, but instead get trash talked and stop posting. Hence I, from time to time, through it back in peoples faces. But it never ceases to amaze me how upset some people, often times the same people who trash other schools get when it gets turned around on them (and I’m not saying you have ever done this, this is my first encounter with you, and you seem to not be that type other than the completely logical response you had to me trashing your school).

 People will turn a blind eye to people trashing any school lower ranked then theirs, but boy do they get all riled up if you do it to them. They forget that they are doing it, either purposefully or by their silence to other people every day. It seems hypocritical to me, and sometimes I try to point that out by throwing some of it back at them. As Tasha said, I caught one, you just got mixed up into something bigger than you realized at the time.

Second, I'm not saying that you don't know what YOU are capable of. Just because you did something or the top 5% of your class did something (or you know a few people who did something), does not mean that someone should expect to be able to go to a T2 school and have a very good chance of being able to accomplish that as well.  What bothers me is that someone would invest 130-180K on a law school education not knowing that realistically they aren't going to have a great chance at getting a 160K a year job out of x school. They might think that their chances are better based on the few success stories (such as yourself) on this board who tell them that they don't need to go to x and x school to get a certain kind of job.  Sure they don't NEED to go to a T14 school...or even a T30, but good luck being in the top 5 people in your class and absolutely nailing one of the 3 interviews you get with BigLaw firms.

If you want to work in BigLaw the facts about hiring are what they are. It has nothing to do with your perspective. Or my perspective. Go look on any firm website and run a search...it is simple statistics based on firm hiring quotas. We can argue about whether or not the fact that a firm will have a quota to hire 30 Harvard kids and 1 kid from Suffolk Law is fair, or right, or whatever, but that is another conversation.

See this is what I am talking about. That’s not how it really is, not at all. Not here, not in my experience. We don’t have the need to fill the large law firms with top grads, there are more local grades at the top local firms here than otherwise. Its not just the top 5%, it goes much deeper than that. I know, I’ve been working in this market for four+ years. But people will tell me, and others, that I am wrong with what I see, with the market I know. And they have nothing to base that on but what they see at T14 schools. Have you ever tried to get a job in Denver? But your going to tell me how it works, because that’s how you think you know how it works, but its NOT. Its much more about who you know than where you go. It’s a very small legal market and knowing the right people can get you jobs people would think T2 grads can’t. How you find jobs in markets like this is very different from  how you do it in NYC.

We aren’t NYC, we don’t have the same pressures you have. How hiring works here, and I’m going to project in many mid markets, is not how it does there. And people giving advice that’s wrong (again not intentionally, but because they just don’t know any better) is a huge problem. Voices like mine, who can better tell people what its like to actually look for a job are drowned out by people saying this is what’s its like. I’m telling you from first hand personal experience its not, but because you got to CLS someone is going to believe you, and I’m afraid that people on here make bad choices because they try and emulate what works at your school down here, because that’s all they hear.

The vast majority of my classmates don’t get jobs from OCI, but that’s how you guys do it. Its bad advice for people from T2s to think that, but that’s what they get told because that’s mostly hat they hear on here. People need to hear that, they need to understand that what works for you guys is actually a BAD plan of attck down here, it will lead to less offers, not more. Its not near as hard as some people think to get a decent job out of a teir 2 SO LONG AS THEY DO IT RIGHT. The biggest problem is most don't becuase they try a copy what works at top schools, puting all thier eegs in the OCI basket, thats just totally the wrong approach to take, but thats how most of the psoetrs on here got jobs so they think thats how they should do it. I'm not some great sucess story, I just figured out what works and what does not, if more people did more people would have better luck finding jobs.

[Matthies]

Your silence on one and vocal opposition to another. Who else have you called out? When do you call out?

i'm actually not vocal opposition one way or the other.  for example when you brought up that coloring book thing, i just played along because i know that you're kidding around.

See my post above, you don’t have to be vocal to have an effect, but when and where you chose to be vocal sends a message that maybe you don’t see being sent.

this is all fair enough.  we don't always come off the way we intend.

having said that, let's be clear: there's no reason for me to be vocal regarding things with which i have no familiarity.  i do comment on things that i know something about, and that means big firms, top schools.  i could say lots of things along the same lines that you do, but i wouldn't know what i was talking about, so it doesn't make much sense for me to do so, don't you think?  

I try to do the same, but we are in the rare minority of posters on here doing so

[SavoyTruffleShuffle]

Lisa: Dad, you can't judge a place you've never been to.
Bart: Yeah, that's what people do in Russia

[Miss P]

[off-topic sanctimony]

If I could pay my bills and work at a non-profit, I totally would. In fact as soon as I pay off my loans I intend to do that (and actually many non-profit jobs are often harder to get than firm jobs).

This isn't personal -- I know nothing about you or your commitment to pro bono work, your other debts, your family obligations, etc. -- but I read this a lot, and I feel the need to comment.

Most lawyers who work at non-profits are paying their bills, and you probably could too.  It's not easy (which is the real problem for most people in your situation) but it's doable, especially if you come from a school with a good LRAP program (and CLS has perhaps the best in the country right now).  The new federal loan forgiveness program will also make a huge difference in the lives of public interest lawyers.

I don't judge people who choose to work at firms.  It's perfectly reasonable to want to make a lot of money or do a certain kind of work, especially if it's what you expected to do when you went to law school in the first place.  Only you can decide what you want out of your career.  To me, it's more important to spend my working hours doing something that I enjoy doing.  To you, it may be more important to live in a nice building in your off hours.  These are not moral issues; they're personal lifestyle choices.  But please don't pretend that your decision to work at a firm is any less of a luxury than my decision to do what I love.  This is not like college where the rich kids spend their summers volunteering in international non-profits while the rest of us toil for minimum wage to make our EFCs.  Almost all of us have ridiculous amounts of debt that we have to pay off.  We've just reached different conclusions about which sacrifices we're willing to make to do so.

[/sanctimony]^*

*Yeah, right.   

[goaliechica]

JD Underground has us right where they want us.... fighting amongst ourselves so they can conquer us more easily!

[Miss P]

JD Underground has us right where they want us.... fighting amongst ourselves so they can conquer us more easily!

I'm not fighting.   

[goaliechica]

JD Underground has us right where they want us.... fighting amongst ourselves so they can conquer us more easily!

I'm not fighting.   

Sorry, it was a poor attempt at a joke.