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Author Topic: job prospects tier 2  (Read 1435 times)

codyl

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job prospects tier 2
« on: November 16, 2008, 02:58:19 PM »
what are the job prospects at tier 2 schools (schools in the 60s-70s)?  What happens if you don't make law review/graduate at top of the class--are you stuck waiting tables/claiming bankruptcy?

3Loser

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Re: job prospects tier 2
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2008, 08:33:34 PM »
Bankruptcy will disqualify you from bar admission in almost every state.

Remarq

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Re: job prospects tier 2
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2008, 09:44:24 PM »
I've been told that bankruptcy doesn't eliminate your student loans anyway... It follows you to the grave.

nbf

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Re: job prospects tier 2
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2008, 09:55:47 PM »
Honestly they're pretty grim even if you are top 10% / law review.  I'm a 3L at such a school and know lots of people on LR still looking for *any* kind of legal employment.

Miss P

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Re: job prospects tier 2
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2008, 10:17:13 PM »
Bankruptcy will disqualify you from bar admission in almost every state.

I don't think this is true.  Filing for bankruptcy should not disqualify you; the underlying circumstances (such as fraud or financial mismanagement) may.  But in this economy, there could be a lot of "innocent" bankruptcy filings.

A bankruptcy judge wrote an interesting article on this topic several years ago (http://www.ncbex.org/uploads/user_docrepos/720403_jackson.pdf).  I am quoting some relevant portions below.

Quote from: The Bar Examiner, November 2003
Government agencies may not discriminate against bankruptcy filers:

Quote
[A] governmental unit may not deny, revoke, suspend, or refuse to renew a license . . . against, a person that is or has been a . . . bankrupt or a debtor under the Bankruptcy Act, or another person with whom such bankrupt or debtor has been associated, solely because such bankrupt or debtor is or has been a debtor under this title or a bankrupt
or debtor under the Bankruptcy Act . . . .

11 U.S.C. § 525 (emphasis added).

The fact of merely filing a bankruptcy petition or the refusal to reinstate obligations discharged in bankruptcy cannot be a
basis for denial of admission to the bar. Such coercion contravenes the Bankruptcy Act’s objective of giving debtors a “‘new opportunity in life and a clear field for future effort, unhampered by the pressure and discouragement of pre-existing debt.’” Perez v. Campbell, 402 U.S. 637, 647, 91 S. Ct. 1704, 1710, 29 L.Ed. 2d 233 (1971).

Quote
Federal law has established the right to declare bankruptcy, and state law may not chill the exercise of that right. However, these constitutional limitations do not preclude a court from inquiring into the bar applicant’s responsibility or moral character in financial matters. The inquiry is impermissible only when the fact of bankruptcy is labeled ‘immoral’ or ‘irresponsible,’ and admission is denied for that reason. In other words, we cannot declare bankruptcy a wrong when Federal law has declared it a right.
Application of Gahan, 279 N.W.2d 826 (Minn. 1979).

Also, student loans can be discharged on bankruptcy, but the standard is very high.  You have to file an undue hardship petition.  You can qualify for undue hardship if: (1) you cannot repay your loans and maintain a minimal standard of living; (2) the situation is likely to persist; and (3) you have made a good-faith effort to repay your loans (the Brunner test).  Students' main problems will be with the second prong of the test.  Cyclical unemployment doesn't qualify.  Most people who receive undue hardship exceptions have serious permanent disabilities.

what are the job prospects at tier 2 schools (schools in the 60s-70s)?  What happens if you don't make law review/graduate at top of the class--are you stuck waiting tables/claiming bankruptcy?

Things are looking pretty rough this year, but the real answer is that no one knows.  I know people in my law school who are on Law Review and will graduate summa who don't have jobs; I know people who are much lower ranked who have offers or encouraging prospects.  At this point -- after biglaw and federal government hiring, clerkships, and fellowships -- the class-rank differences flatten out somewhat.  Someone in the bottom 5% probably doesn't have the same shot as someone in the top 5%, but it's really more about the number of applications, interview skills, networking, clinical experience, etc.  Obviously LR, moot court, and academic honors are nice resume boosters -- but they're just that in state and local government hiring, small firms, non-profits, etc.
That's cool how you referenced a case.

Quote from: archival
I'm so far from the end of my tether right now that I reckon I could knit myself some socks with the slack.

NeverTrustKlingons

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Re: job prospects tier 2
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2008, 12:11:52 AM »
The truth is that graduates of lower-ranked schools need to be much more entrepreneurial and have certain doors closed to them, but that doesn't mean they're on the bread line just yet. 

That doesn't mean you're stuck to waiting tables / claiming bankruptcy.  Point in fact, there are plenty of Widener graduates (basically an open-admissions law school, flame me all you want for that characterization) making very decent money in the Philly / Wilmington market. 
I'll never trust a Klingon.  Klingon bastards killed my son.  -- Captain James T. Kirk, USS Enterprise NCC-1701

Miss P

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Re: job prospects tier 2
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2008, 12:14:30 AM »
The truth is that graduates of lower-ranked schools need to be much more entrepreneurial and have certain doors closed to them, but that doesn't mean they're on the bread line just yet. 

That doesn't mean you're stuck to waiting tables / claiming bankruptcy.  Point in fact, there are plenty of Widener graduates (basically an open-admissions law school, flame me all you want for that characterization) making very decent money in the Philly / Wilmington market. 

This is pretty true, though the economy changes things a bit.  There are a lot more unemployed 2008 grads from my school than there were 2007 grads at this time last year (when I didn't know a single one).  Some with e-board positions on LR or the other high-ranked journal, academic honors, etc.  It's a little scary.
That's cool how you referenced a case.

Quote from: archival
I'm so far from the end of my tether right now that I reckon I could knit myself some socks with the slack.

NeverTrustKlingons

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Re: job prospects tier 2
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2008, 12:16:44 AM »
It is scary, and it doesn't help that schools are downright unethical about how they market their JD programs.

"Law school name might help if you want to be on the Supreme Court, but otherwise a JD is a JD."  -- paraphrased from a Cooley admissions video when I was doing my admissions search.
I'll never trust a Klingon.  Klingon bastards killed my son.  -- Captain James T. Kirk, USS Enterprise NCC-1701

Scentless Apprentice

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Re: job prospects tier 2
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2008, 12:56:06 AM »
I usually stick to the LSAT board because of my prelaw status, but I just thought I'd chime in with my experience in reponse to the OP's general question about Tier 2's & emp. prospects.

I've spent the last few months participating in a prelaw internship where I'm assigned to a judge & observe trials, motion hearings & settlement conferences (for some reason I don't want to say where, but in a large city similar to the size of Chicago/Philly/NYC/San Fran.). One of the best things about this experience has been meeting lots of attorneys, many of which have been more than willing to get pretty in depth with me about what it's like to practice law..from criminal defense, corporate, to dep. dist. attorneys.

After reading this board for so long I had become somewhat of a "law school name whore." I'm not anymore. I would say that the majority of the people I've met around the courthouse were Tier 2 - 4. Recently I was speaking with an attorney who told me he went to School X, a tier 4 (honestly), and I asked him "do you know Judge X", and he was like yeah, I went to law school with him.

I also remember one DA I talked to that had gone to school on the east coast, which I later looked up. Tier 3/4.

Those are just a couple of examples. Now, I don't necessarily think this accurately represents the legal market as a whole. I do understand that your school may help you get a first job..if you're up against 12 other applicants, and you went to a T14 & the others are Tier 2 & above...yeah, you may get hired. Maybe. But, in the long run, I think your personality & abilities are what gets you work.

Side note, just something I'm wondering if any of you have considered. Thinking like an economist, isnt there the possibility that some people may become more litigious in a "down" economy?

Birds of a feather flock together.

LSN

Miss P

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Re: job prospects tier 2
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2008, 01:02:26 AM »
isnt there the possibility that some people may become more litigious in a "down" economy?

i hear that litigation is somewhat counter-cyclical, but it still decreases in a down economy because businesses cut down on litigation that could be considered "discretionary".

This is right, as far as I understand things.  Some things (like bankruptcy litigation) will tick up; random corporate feuds and securities litigation will go down.  Most transactional work except M&A will go down.  It also depends on the client base of your firm or practice group.  Some clients are doing just fine, and you want to have them around as they poach other companies, sue debtors, etc.
That's cool how you referenced a case.

Quote from: archival
I'm so far from the end of my tether right now that I reckon I could knit myself some socks with the slack.