# Any MFAs out there?

#### LawDog3

• 640
##### Re: Any MFAs out there?
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2009, 08:29:48 PM »
. . . you get at least 10% of a class with numbers far below BOTH medians at the law schools, and the fact that only an average of about 25% of admitted students have numbers at BOTH medians.

Where do you get these numbers?  Just curious.  I am not saying you're wrong.  I just have never seen anything like them before.

I would also like to know this.  It's mathematically possible, but realistically doesn't make sense (especially that this would be the case in every law school).

My school stats came from the ABA and the school websites. But I suppose you are asking more about the statistic analyses I posited, correct? They are hypos based on the common admissions technique all schools use. I wish i could draw you a diagram to illustrate it.

You guys are right in one sense. The numbers would never fold out that neatly, but the process is just like I described at just about every school except HYS. This is how schools control their medians (either maintaining or raising them). I got my info on how admissions works from my LSAT instructor, who also happened to work in admissions at the University of Washington. But I believe her because the scenarios make sense. They completely explain how some schools could have GPA's and LSAT's at certain levels and still maintain their medians.

They also debunk the theory that URM's make up the vast majority of students getting in with lower numbers. Based on the absence of significant application levels, it would be impossible at most schools for URM's to do this, i.e., there are other students getting without wither a GPA above the schools' medians or LSAT above the medians. Based on LSAT statistics, it would be impossible at all but the very top schools for anything beyond 25% of students to match or exceed BOTH the medians. I will try to illustrate it the way it was explained to me.

Try this:

Draw a graph, with ax X-axis and a Y axis, all four quartiles. Quartile one represents GPA's above a schools medians, except along the X-axis from (0,0) to the end of +X, Y(0). Draw a shaded line that covers about an inch above and below the X-axis all the way to the end of X, Y(0). Now, do the same with the -X, Y(0).

In the Princeton Review book I referenced, Dean Andy Cornblat speaks to this point, when he says to think of the LSAT as a bar that everyone must jump over. Each individual candidate comes in with a certain undergraduate GPA that, for the most part is "fixed" (absent post-bacc work or additional courses). The GPA sets the bar that each individual's LSAT will have to get over in order to get a serious view. Everyone gets to jump, and everyone has to jump.

I never finished this...does anyone want me to? I'll walk you through it if you like...

#### penni_rose

• 134
##### Re: Any MFAs out there?
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2009, 02:34:10 PM »
If it helps in any way, I have an M.A. in Writing and Publishing (not something that I thought would really help in law school admission). I talked to the admission offices where I was applying and my answer was pretty much "It can't HURT your application." Basically, what they said was that it would probably make a difference when considering borderline applications and/or scholarship options, but that it wouldn't really help me if my numbers were way off. Mine weren't (as you can see below). At this point, it really comes down to your LSAT. I've heard stories of people with an LSAT score over 170 and a UGPA at 3.1 or so that have gotten into top law schools (though not T14, but still good solid schools).

I think that one problem with this site is an overemphasis on T14 schools. It is not true that you will fail in life if you go to a law school outside of the T14, and I think that with a good LSAT score, you have a shot at top 100.

Also, you're personal statement can really make a difference if your borderline... don't forget that.

#### LawDog3

• 640
##### Re: Any MFAs out there?
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2009, 05:09:42 PM »
If it helps in any way, I have an M.A. in Writing and Publishing (not something that I thought would really help in law school admission). I talked to the admission offices where I was applying and my answer was pretty much "It can't HURT your application." Basically, what they said was that it would probably make a difference when considering borderline applications and/or scholarship options, but that it wouldn't really help me if my numbers were way off. Mine weren't (as you can see below). At this point, it really comes down to your LSAT. I've heard stories of people with an LSAT score over 170 and a UGPA at 3.1 or so that have gotten into top law schools (though not T14, but still good solid schools).

I think that one problem with this site is an overemphasis on T14 schools. It is not true that you will fail in life if you go to a law school outside of the T14, and I think that with a good LSAT score, you have a shot at top 100.

Also, you're personal statement can really make a difference if your borderline... don't forget that.

That's good advice, but, even though you don't personally know people w/ 3.1/170 at T-14, it isn't an odd occurrence. In fact, it happens more often than people think...every year. HYS...less frequently, but #4-#14? Yes! and #15-#30...all the time!

I have seen the particulars on this candidate. She's a lot better than she looks below. She PM'd me with more info...her grade trend, the fact that she became a professional athlete and a classically trained musician after struggling for years. She has won many highly selective scholarships and honors, and her last two years of undergrad, where she took her most difficult courses (and the greater bulk of her credits), were 3.6 and 3.8 GPA's, with several dean's list appearances. There's much more to this candidate than meets the eye on this board. She appears to be T-14 material.

Like I said...no guarantees, but she can apply and realistically expect to get some serious looks if her LSAT is in order. I'm looking at the whole package. She has several years work experience with a non-profit; plus she is an international student. My problem with a few of the posters is that they think everything is "GPA/LSAT...what was the rank of your undergrad school?...was your major a reasonably good one...okay, you're eligible for these schools". Those are their analyses, and there's much more...much more to the game than that.

#### Jamie Stringer

• 1571
##### Re: Any MFAs out there?
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2009, 05:40:38 PM »
If she PM'd you her info, why are you broadcasting it here?  It would stand to reason she'd like her particulars to be kept private.

#### LawDog3

• 640
##### Re: Any MFAs out there?
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2009, 06:13:54 PM »
If she PM'd you her info, why are you broadcasting it here?  It would stand to reason she'd like her particulars to be kept private.

maybe she said she didn't really mind one way or the other.

i just wish he'd told us as soon as she told him.  that would have saved us a lot of discussion earlier on.

She actually mentioned in her PM that she should have put it up here. Believe me, if she had wanted it private, I wouldn't tell it. But, I have not revealed any "identifiable" info...it's random.

You're right, she could have saved us some discussion.

Anyways, the point is that this is true with many applicants. I always say, until we look at transcripts, LOR's, essays, grade trends, specific courses, and resume, we aren't really equipped to tell anyone where they should or should not apply. But, with limited info, I tend to lean towards optomism.

I knew this lady was unique by the stuff she revealed. She can go to a top school. She just needs to nail the LSAT. Her "softs" are really "hard".

#### LawDog3

• 640
##### Re: Any MFAs out there?
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2009, 06:16:25 PM »
I have seen the particulars on this candidate. She's a lot better than she looks below. She PM'd me with more info...

oh yeah?  maybe we were all wrong about her then.  she pm'ed you recently?

Well. People can only go on what they are given. But if someone asks for advice, we should make it a habit to query for more info. Some people are easy to peg, and some are harder.

#### LawDog3

• 640
##### Re: Any MFAs out there?
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2009, 06:17:15 PM »
You're right, she could have saved us some discussion.

well, YOU could have as well.

how long have you known all this?  i mean honestly?

She told me a little after we began debating on it...I'll look below to get the date. hold on.

#### LawDog3

• 640
##### Re: Any MFAs out there?
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2009, 06:25:33 PM »
You're right, she could have saved us some discussion.

well, YOU could have as well.

how long have you known all this?  i mean honestly?

She told me a little after we began debating on it...I'll look below to get the date. hold on.

thank you for establishing yourself to be a liar.

you first posted in this thread on january 14:

I have been out of undergrad for about 8 years (eng and musical theatre major with 3.38 GPA), but I did get an MFA(performance) and graduated with a 4.0. I am wondering if anyone knows how much the graduate school grades will be taken into account?  Given that I am a completely different person now than I was at 21, I am hoping that the admissions office will make note of this. I have been in the work force for about 8 years and help create a 501c3 here in Chicago.

Thoughts?

They are given good weight. An undergrad B+ average and a 4.0 MFA might get you into a T-14 if your LSAT id over 164 and you have some other soft factors. Schools will look at it differently. Try to target schools that have a great respect for performers, like the NY schools and the Cali schools. your major was performance and that could cost you some points...it just depends.

the OP was last active:

Name:     namastegirl
Posts:    1 (0.011 per day)
Position:    Newbie
Date Registered:    October 24, 2008, 01:51:34 PM
Last Active:    October 24, 2008, 06:11:57 PM

Not lying...

As the PM that used to be in this spot right here shows.

#### LawDog3

• 640
##### Re: Any MFAs out there?
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2009, 06:28:12 PM »
Sorry about that. I was not doing this inmtentionally.

I received the first of four PM's on 01/15 from the other applicant and had her confused with the MFA applicant. I had been waging the same debate. The one below is a Ph.D. whereas the OP is an MFA.

Sorry guys.

But the principle is still the same. My argument is that we should be sure to get background info before we give the advice. That's all.

This is what happens when one debates the same issue(s) on multiple posts. My mistake.

#### LawDog3

• 640
##### Re: Any MFAs out there?
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2009, 06:34:48 PM »
oh goodness.

fine, you might not be a liar.  but you are, at the very least, confused.

lol! No...I am far from a liar.

But people have criticized me for telling applicants to be optomistic. I had two very intense debates going on the topic of the relevant importance of post-graduate degrees. Do you see how I could get the two confused?

The Ph.D. PM'd me four times. We spoke very in-depth about her background. Guys were telling me that she wasn't a T-14 candidate, and I disagreed. I turned out to be right, based on the additional info. I didn't even give it all to you down below; she revealed more strong info in subsequent messages.

I'm going to erase that PM now...just in case.