QUESTION FOR AMERICANS ON AFFIRMATIVE ACTION

[mfs73]

I have the feeling I'm going to really regret posting this question.  PLEASE prove me wrong. 

I've lived in Europe and in the US for most of my life, so I don't know if I feel any special sense of "ownership" to issues here.  I usually feel like an outsider looking in with a very different perspective (definitely not an "American perspective").  As a result, the idea of "affirmative action" here and the debate over it really strikes me as simultaneously interesting and confusing. 

I've noticed that people usually argue the concept of affirmative action but only within the confines of "race".  For example, I scrolled through a few of the threads here, and I've noticed pretty much every single one I viewed was someone arguing their point on the basis of "race" (it feels strange to use that word here because Americans are overwhelmingly multi-ethnic/race, but I use that term to make a point).  No one seemed to be up in arms about it benefiting women.  "White" women in particular are the main beneficiaries of US affirmative action policies (look it up if you need guidance or clarification on this...I'm assuming you already know this).  In law schools, women are now making up the vast majority forcing universities to rethink their AA policies.  (Again, you can look that up as well...I don't really want to hold hands here.  I just want to get to the point.)

Anyway, it's strange to me that people do not hold the same contempt toward that group (which would include yours truly).  It seems that the widely held assumption is that if I'm a woman and I'm "White" and I was accepted to a university or law school...then it must have been based on my merit and not on the affirmative action policies that are there to benefit me (since I am a woman and therefore benefit from affirmative action).  On the other hand, if someone is "Black" and accepted to a university or law school, then the assumption is that they were admitted via AA policies...at the very least, many people seem to think they were NOT accepted because someone Black was.  On the other hand, they do not believe they were NOT accepted because a woman was.  I hope I'm making myself clear here. 

I know why people do this in legal settings - after all, the best way to rally Americans against a policy is to say it benefits/empowers Blacks or that it gives Black an advantage not shared by all.  It feeds into the latent hostilities this country holds toward that group and gets people to react in anger.  If you argue before a court that you want to rid the country of a policy that benefits his mom, his daughter, his sister (meaning women who are White)...it's not likely said court will find in your favor.  On the other hand, argue that it benefits a group that said court probably doesn't at all represent and very well-likely hasn't close ties to (personal or otherwise) and it's easier for said court (and the majority population in the US, for that matter) to embrace doing away with AA. 

I think that's a brilliant approach, actually.  Nevertheless, I don't understand why everyday Americans seem to be under the impression that it's a "Black/White" issue.  For one, Blacks aren't the main beneficiaries of affirmative action...White women are.  Can anyone answer that question for me?  (I'm really curious about how Americans think, so any thoughts would be appreciated...)

I hope I made my question understood...thank you in advance for your feedback. 

[treefity350]

There are no affirmative action policies in place that benefit white women (at least in the college admissions game, which is what is generally considered on this board). White women are treated exactly the same as white men by admissions departments. Don't be a dummy.

[Matthies]

There are no affirmative action policies in place that benefit white women (at least in the college admissions game, which is what is generally considered on this board). White women are treated exactly the same as white men by admissions departments. Don't be a dummy.

Umm, AA started with women, hell title 9 is AA gone mad. They don't give white women an advatange in admissions becuase AA worked so well for them in the 60-70s that they make up half the damn population in school now. GET BACK IN THE KICTEHN U WOMENZ

[treefity350]

There are no affirmative action policies in place that benefit white women (at least in the college admissions game, which is what is generally considered on this board). White women are treated exactly the same as white men by admissions departments. Don't be a dummy.

Umm, AA started with women, hell title 9 is AA gone mad. They don't give white women an advatange in admissions becuase AA worked so well for them in the 60-70s that they make up half the damn population in school now. GET BACK IN THE KICTEHN U WOMENZ

Alright, you just said the same exact thing I did. They don't give white women an advantage in admissions.

[mfs73]

Don't be a dummy.

You need that advice more than I do.  By the way, that's a very silly and immature statement to make.  I'm assuming you're young and just don't know any better. 

Nevertheless, as I said earlier, white women are the primary beneficiaries of Affirmative Action policy (look it up if you need to; I'm assuming you know this already).  We are also STILL included in current university AA procedures.  The earlier comment about us now outnumbering men (if not equal in number) is very true.  Nevertheless... 

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Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 bars gender discrimination in all education programs at institutions receiving federal funds (all but a handful of colleges). But Title IX has an important exemption: On admissions decisions, the statute covers all vocational, graduate and professional programs, but for undergraduate admissions, it applies only to public institutions.
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That's in regard to affirmative action in universities, since you spoke of that specifically.  I can also address it in the workplace if you'd like, but in my initial post, I was speaking of AA overall (professional and academic). 

So my initial question remains....

[Miss P]

I'm sorry, but I don't know where you get the idea that white women are currently the primary beneficiaries of affirmative action in college and university admissions.  At least in undergraduate admissions, women outnumber men by about 60-40, and their numerical qualifications (except for math SATs) tend to be higher, so schools employ some form of affirmative action to get closer to gender parity.  Men, of course, are the beneficiaries of such affirmative action.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1727693,00.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/23/opinion/23britz.html
http://articles.latimes.com/2004/nov/21/local/me-boys21
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-04-02-our-view_x.htm

[Matthies]

There are no affirmative action policies in place that benefit white women (at least in the college admissions game, which is what is generally considered on this board). White women are treated exactly the same as white men by admissions departments. Don't be a dummy.

Umm, AA started with women, hell title 9 is AA gone mad. They don't give white women an advatange in admissions becuase AA worked so well for them in the 60-70s that they make up half the damn population in school now. GET BACK IN THE KICTEHN U WOMENZ

Alright, you just said the same exact thing I did. They don't give white women an advantage in admissions.

Anymore, precisely because AA for women worked so well in the last 30 years. Parity has been reached because of AA. Not too long ago women were not allowed in many schools, clubs, organizations or professions. The parity of women now, and the fact they are not direct beneficiaries of legacy AA today is because they were so much in the past.  AA is popular now with minorities because it worked so well for women (it helped that they were 50% of the population). END WOMEN’S SUFFRAGE< WE HAVE ALL SUFFERED ENOUGH ALREADY>

[treefity350]

I'm assuming you're young and just don't know any better.

And I'm assuming you're a dummy.

Actually, its not an assumption, because you're trying to prove that white women are affected by AA policies in college admissions by pointing to Title IX. I might be "young" but I'm not stupid. I already knew that Title IX existed.  The fact that its illegal to discriminate against someone is not equatable to saying that they beneficiaries of AA in college admissions decisions. The point is that no white woman's application is put in a special pile because she's a woman. There is no white woman at HLS that scored a 158 on her LSAT.

By the way, I support AA. I just think you're coming at this from the wrong angle. A better way to point out the problem with opposing AA is that college loans are a form of AA - government backed support for a group of people who otherwise would not be able to attend college. But you don't hear any rich kids with 1100 SATs saying, "Man, if the government didn't give all those poor assholes money to go to college I'd be in by default."

But I digress. You're a dummy.

[rhesusman]

For one, Blacks aren't the main beneficiaries of affirmative action...White women are.

Please provide evidence to support this assertion.  Do you have any evidence of any statement by any admissions department at any coeducational university expressing a preference for women in admissions decisions?  If so, what evidence do you have that such preferences are widespread?  If white women were beneficiaries of affirmative action, you would expect to see women getting into educational institutions with lower grades and test scores than white male applicants.  Do you have any evidence that this is occurring?

[Jamie Stringer]

For one, Blacks aren't the main beneficiaries of affirmative action...White women are.

Please provide evidence to support this assertion.  Do you have any evidence of any statement by any admissions department at any coeducational university expressing a preference for women in admissions decisions?  If so, what evidence do you have that such preferences are widespread?  If white women were beneficiaries of affirmative action, you would expect to see women getting into educational institutions with lower grades and test scores than white male applicants.  Do you have any evidence that this is occurring?

"Contrary to popular belief, African Americans are not the sole, or even the primary, beneficiaries of affirmative action. Rather, a wide range of groups have benefited from these polocies which promote equality by directing resources, outreach and other opportunities to targeted underrepresented communities.

"These groups include women, Native Americans, Arab Americans, Latino/as, Asian Americans, and African Americans. Of these groups, the United States Department of Labor found that white women are the primary beneficiaries of affirmative action."

http://aapf.org/focus/episodes/oct30.php