Go to a T14 IN THIS ECONOMY!

[observationalist]

Did mock interviews before. The counselors said I did very well - indeed, good enough to overcome by grades (I am .1 below median). I had really good rapport with a couple of the interviewers. Still nothing. Below median hurts. Also, my GPA was .1 above median until I screwed the pooch in one class, so that probably looks bad. My story isn't unusual in this economy either. And yes, there is a difference between T18-15 and T14. It is not hype.

I really don't think a stark difference is being seen between schools separated by one or two spots on the USNews ladder.  Most firms are still hiring some summer associates this year; all they've done is lower the size of their summer class.  In this scenario I really do see the larger schools feeling the hurt more than the smaller ones because of the sheer number of students they're trying to place with the same number of firms.  The same problem goes for schools that place a majority of grads in a single market, because those students are competing with each other for a limited number of spots in each firm.  There is still a demand at most firms to have students from a variety of top law schools, and being able to differentiate yourself from other applicants helps.  The level of success placing the 10-15 Vanderbilt 2Ls wanting to work in Houston is going to be better this year than the success of placing however many UT 2Ls aiming to work there when you look at class percentages.  And if- after all the callbacks are done- a third of my class doesn't end up with a job through OCI, that still translates into about 40 students that Career Services will now be working with on an individual level, a much smaller number than people in a similar position at GULC, UT or another larger school.

The Houston scenario might not address your situation if you're looking at other markets besides those in Texas, but I don't think you can draw the line between 14/15 for firm success this year based on what you've observed at your school.  In a few months each school should have enough placement information ready to distribute to prospectives in time for them to be making decisions on where to go, and at that time I guess we can revisit the argument of what schools are the best bets in a shrinking job market.

[Number81]

I still don't buy the T14 business and I still think it's all from Anthony Ciolli, whose very own reports suggest that the T14 aren't even better at getting jobs than some of the 15-18 schools.  Ignoring Ciolli's statistics, there's just as much of a difference between the #10 and #13 school as the #13 and #16 school and the #16 and #19 school.

Also, what happened to the OP doesn't necessarily mean that the market is horrible.  Slightly below median at a 15-18 school is usually right around the 'cut-off' anyway.

Other points:
(1) I think it's easy for the bad economy's effect on firm positions to be overhyped.  If a firm doing mostly litigation (or whatever) lays off 25 employees, that is big news.  But, it seems like they're not reporting that a firm doing mostly Bankruptcy is also hiring 25 people.
(2) We just had Partners from Alston&Byrd and King&Spalding do a panel discussion.  They said that generally there has been a slight decrease in summers, but Spalding is welcoming back every 2L that wants to work next year.
(3) In general, law is pretty anti-cyclical, and that is a big benefit for it as opposed to something like i-banking.
(4) By this time next year, the economy should be turned around (most people say 7-9 months).  This year's 0Ls have almost 3 years before they begin work as a 2L SA.  Hopefully we'll be moving again by that time.
(5) The risk/reward calculation isn't changing a whole lot.  If you go to a 15-30 school with a big scholarship, you are graduating with very little debt and your risk isn't that high even if you don't get biglaw.  If you graduate from a T14, you are going to sit with a big debt, and if we assume things are really bad, you still might not even get biglaw, so you might be doubly screwed.

[botbot]

I still don't buy the T14 business and I still think it's all from Anthony Ciolli, whose very own reports suggest that the T14 aren't even better at getting jobs than some of the 15-18 schools.  Ignoring Ciolli's statistics, there's just as much of a difference between the #10 and #13 school as the #13 and #16 school and the #16 and #19 school.

While I might not necessarily agree with the exact numbers here (I don't remember who's what rank this year aside from the fact that Penn is ranked 7B, right behind Chicago at 7), I agree that it's bizarre to draw a magic line behind #14.  I think #14 and #15 probably have a lot more in common with each other than #14 has with say, #1.

14 has a lot more in common with 13 than 15...

[,.,.,.;.,.,.]

I still don't buy the T14 business and I still think it's all from Anthony Ciolli, whose very own reports suggest that the T14 aren't even better at getting jobs than some of the 15-18 schools.  Ignoring Ciolli's statistics, there's just as much of a difference between the #10 and #13 school as the #13 and #16 school and the #16 and #19 school.

While I might not necessarily agree with the exact numbers here (I don't remember who's what rank this year aside from the fact that Penn is ranked 7B, right behind Chicago at 7), I agree that it's bizarre to draw a magic line behind #14.  I think #14 and #15 probably have a lot more in common with each other than #14 has with say, #1.

14 has a lot more in common with 13 than 15...

That's a good reason to lump it with #13 before lumping it with #15.  Not so great a reason to lump it together with #1 before lumping it with #15.

I mean if you want to have bands (1-3, 4-7, 7A-10, 11-14, 15-18, etc.) then I'd be fine with that.  But this dichotomy of T14, everybody else is just stupid as far as I'm concerned.

But.  But.  Don't firms generally prefer T10 because they can brag about the associates they have from T10 schools?  You're assuming that firms are rational about name recognition (Yale to GULC), which they obviously aren't in some respects.  It's better to have Michigan JD on the firm's website over UCLA, but I doubt the quality of associate changes that much.

[goaliechica]

I still don't buy the T14 business and I still think it's all from Anthony Ciolli, whose very own reports suggest that the T14 aren't even better at getting jobs than some of the 15-18 schools.  Ignoring Ciolli's statistics, there's just as much of a difference between the #10 and #13 school as the #13 and #16 school and the #16 and #19 school.

While I might not necessarily agree with the exact numbers here (I don't remember who's what rank this year aside from the fact that Penn is ranked 7B, right behind Chicago at 7), I agree that it's bizarre to draw a magic line behind #14.  I think #14 and #15 probably have a lot more in common with each other than #14 has with say, #1.

14 has a lot more in common with 13 than 15...

That's a good reason to lump it with #13 before lumping it with #15.  Not so great a reason to lump it together with #1 before lumping it with #15.

I mean if you want to have bands (1-3, 4-7, 7A-10, 11-14, 15-18, etc.) then I'd be fine with that.  But this dichotomy of T14, everybody else is just stupid as far as I'm concerned.

You're incorrigible 

[johnnytremain1234]

Key misunderstanding on this thread:

We are in the midst of a FINANCIAL crisis.

NOT an ECONOMIC crisis.

These are VERY different things.

A depression is not coming, although an argument for a recession could be made.

However, many key areas of our economy are relatively insurance proof, even some sectors of FINANCE are relatively recession proof (insurance for one).

Let's temper some of the doom and gloom.  It's just breathless hysterics.

[,.,.,.;.,.,.]

The point is that T14 wouldn't have saved the OP from this job market.  He would have needed to be much higher -- where is debatable, especially since he was slightly below median -- and interviewed well to have firm options.  Whether it's Penn or CLS or HLS or YLS is not something I want to debate.

In this economy, certainly you want to go to the highest-ranked school possible.

[flyaway]

You're incorrigible 

Among other things.  

But.  But.  Don't firms generally prefer T10 because they can brag about the associates they have from T10 schools?  You're assuming that firms are rational about name recognition (Yale to GULC), which they obviously aren't in some respects.  It's better to have Michigan JD on the firm's website over UCLA, but I doubt the quality of associate changes that much.

So I don't get this post.  At all.  I don't think firms give a damn about name recognition.  Not top firms, anyway.  Why do you think I assume that?

We are in the midst of a FINANCIAL crisis.

NOT an ECONOMIC crisis.

Um, have you seen the manufacturing report that came out today?

I think firms absolutely do care about name recognition, especially after talking to a transfer who went through OCI at his old T1 school and then at Michigan two weeks later.

[Number81]

YellowBrickRoad--
Let me be clear, first, that I am not trying to speak with authority here, but I am still of the belief that people on this board are overstating the difficulty of getting a job for the 0Ls.

Regarding point (2), you may be right about it being a recruiting event, but that seems like a stretch.  There were a couple partners, a couple new associates, and someone who was working in-house for ATT and all were Emory alumni.  The in-house guy talked about how awful working for a firm is and how he didn't think it was worth it.  In any event, I'm guessing they can't just lie about giving all their 2L SA's jobs.

(3) was based on every discussion I've had with people in person:  three professors have mentioned this specifically in class, this was the general sentiment at our panel, and I've talked to a couple recent Yale Law alumni (family) that are at firms, and they all echoed the fact that terrible times are not all that bad for lawyers, generally, but that we also generally don't see really, really good times.  Another point has been that the bail-out bill is going to require tremendous amounts of legal work.

In response to (4), my main point is that most economists I've heard from think we'll be on the upswing in about 7 months (although, presumably, we may fall before that point).  Keep in mind that even though the current 1Ls will be looking for jobs in ~11 months, they will be hired with the knowledge that work won't begin for 23 months.

I don't know which Vault firms you're referring to that only hire T14's, but I find it odd because I'm pretty sure someone from Emory just got picked up by Cravath this year following a traditional path.  That's not to say that just because the (2nd) best law firm hired a #22 that all the rest necessarily will.  The general point at any rate is that I am discussing biglaw and not V10 biglaw, or even V100 biglaw.



Regarding the T14 deal -- Yes, all T14 schools were once T10 schools and no school not in the T14 has ever been in the T14.  That in mind, the job prospect jumps are not all that significant.  I asked a Professor who worked at Emory, Berklee, Harvard, and as counsel for a Vault firm about this during an ASW last year and he laughed and made fun of the notion.  Look at the numbers posted by Ciolli and you'll notice Vandy has better job prospects than Georgetown according to it.
P.S. hey botbot.
And also YBR, was that your screen name last year?  Maybe your avatar change is throwing me off.

[nealric]

Look at the numbers posted by Ciolli and you'll notice Vandy has better job prospects than Georgetown according to it.

I'm a bit apprehensive about getting into the whole T14 debate again. The dead horse has been so thoroughly beaten that there is little left of it. I will say that I don't think the T14 (if it is to exist at all) really should have anything to do with the USNWR. There just happen to be 14 schools that a plurality (more or less) of people judge to be the nationally known top schools.

However, as a GULC student, it is my obligatory duty to troll for the school whenever it is convenient for me to do so (as it is now). The Ciolli study is a far from rigorous or comprehensive listing that dates back to '05. A '07 study from the National Law Journal has GULC placing about 10-15% deeper into it's class than Vandy for biglaw.

In response to (4), my main point is that most economists I've heard from think we'll be on the upswing in about 7 months (although, presumably, we may fall before that point).  Keep in mind that even though the current 1Ls will be looking for jobs in ~11 months, they will be hired with the knowledge that work won't begin for 23 months.
 

That's true. But the fact of the matter is that some firms ARE reducing the size of their summer classes this year. Even if the pool of available jobs only shrinks by 10% there can be a huge effect on the market.