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Poll

Is my life a complete failure???

Yes
 20 (44.4%)
No
 25 (55.6%)

Total Members Voted: 45

Author Topic: Complete Failure  (Read 17671 times)

Drew P. Bottom

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Re: Complete Failure
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2008, 12:14:14 AM »
To Original Poster -

I know someone very well who had a similar situation. No one will bite until you pass. Try applying for legal temp jobs (and maybe even non-legal temp jobs) in the meantime. Also, keep applying for state clerkships where you have some sort of connection. Then., after you pass the bar, have several more applications ready and send them out.
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This is wrong.

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Re: Complete Failure
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2008, 12:24:13 AM »
Quote
but you certainly haven't offered any evidence that private sector hiring is more competitive than public sector hiring in general.

I didn't make that claim (and certainly wouldn't sector-wide).  My only claim is that biglaw (Vault100, generally) is more selective than the average small town DA/Public Defender job. 

I don't really see the point of making this claim. 

"Hey, Joe, I guess your alternative to not getting any offers from the 10 firms you interviewed with here in New York City is just to move to Elk City, Oklahoma and work in the PD office there.  Guess NY isn't big enough for the both of us.  Sorry ol' chap.  I suggest Ebay and Craigslist to sell all your *&^%."


Most people study in a certain place to be able to work nearby (if they aren't studying there because of particular career concerns, e.g. a good shot at BigLaw or academia or whatever).
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Miss P

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Re: Complete Failure
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2008, 12:38:34 AM »
Crappy nonprofits in crappy towns don't usually post on career services databases, PSLawNet or Idealist. HTH.  Try--shocking--newspapers and local magazines. And the "I don't really feel as if I am in a position to judge what towns are crappy" line? Geeze. 

Your experience of getting 500 applications was in 1) a town where there are lots of people, 2) a desirable location, 3) a town with tons of law schools, 4) with a well-known non-profit, and 5) posted in an online database. 

As for the bolded, I was talking about charity rankings.

And how in the world is me saying that there are jobs for people with 3.3s from Rutgers-Camden elitist?  You're the one making it seem like a nonprofit gig is impossible... 

Your position is elitist because you keep claiming that the jobs you and your peers wouldn't choose in places you wouldn't choose to live are a dime a dozen merely because most of the people who take them or live there don't have your credentials.  It's not elitist to acknowledge that the OP has a tough road to hoe -- not because s/he has a 3.3 from Rutgers-Camden, but because there aren't very many JD jobs out there (and most of us, after taking out thousands of dollars of loans for law school, need to get JD jobs in order to pay back our loans and/or to qualify for loan repayment programs).  The EIC of the law review at my school is having trouble getting interviews.  Her credentials are impeccable, but the jobs are still scarce.  (She has an offer from her top-five firm, btw, but she wants to do non-profit work.) This is what I mean by competitive.  There are a lot of people competing for a small number of spaces.  It has nothing to do with credentials. 

And with respect to the bolded, if you agree with me, then you also must agree that there are very few positions, no?

Its not pretending like it will be easy to get a job.  I think YBR and I were both just saying that OP should look at some non-profits if he/she werent already doing so.  It is not easy to get a non-profit job, even at a small, unknown non-profit, but it is easier than getting jobs elsewhere. 

You come across as if you believe that every legal job is equally difficult to obtain.  This is simply not the case.  Unqualified people work somewhere.  This isnt to say that they are all in non-profits as many are probably in the small firms, government jobs, and even large law firms.  The point is just that the OP, with good grades from a good school may be able to find something from a smaller less known non-profit.  That is all.

I don't know that you have provided any evidence -- anecdotal or otherwise -- that getting a non-profit job is "easier than getting jobs elsewhere."  Meanwhile, goaliechica has offered a logical explanation of why this wouldn't be the case, and I have rounded this out with my experience as both an employee with some responsibility for JD hiring and a 3L seeking non-profit employment. 

I also don't know why you keep referring to "unqualified" people.  The OP's credentials make him/her perfectly qualified, as are lots of people who are having trouble finding jobs. 

The point is that the OP isn't a "complete failure."  These are rough times.  The non-profit sector is particularly hard hit in an economic crisis.  If you have specific ideas for the OP, that's great, but your assumption that non-profit jobs are easier to come by than the jobs you want is not very helpful.
That's cool how you referenced a case.

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Miss P

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Re: Complete Failure
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2008, 12:39:33 AM »
To Original Poster -

I know someone very well who had a similar situation. No one will bite until you pass. Try applying for legal temp jobs (and maybe even non-legal temp jobs) in the meantime. Also, keep applying for state clerkships where you have some sort of connection. Then., after you pass the bar, have several more applications ready and send them out.

This advice sounds sensible to me.   :-\
That's cool how you referenced a case.

Quote from: archival
I'm so far from the end of my tether right now that I reckon I could knit myself some socks with the slack.

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Re: Complete Failure
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2008, 12:52:33 AM »
Its not pretending like it will be easy to get a job.  I think YBR and I were both just saying that OP should look at some non-profits if he/she werent already doing so.  It is not easy to get a non-profit job, even at a small, unknown non-profit, but it is easier than getting jobs elsewhere. 

You come across as if you believe that every legal job is equally difficult to obtain.  This is simply not the case.  Unqualified people work somewhere.  This isnt to say that they are all in non-profits as many are probably in the small firms, government jobs, and even large law firms.  The point is just that the OP, with good grades from a good school may be able to find something from a smaller less known non-profit.  That is all.

No.  The point is that neither you nor YBR have provided evidence to support this assumption.

It makes sense (intuitively, anecdotally, and statistically given the type of employment and resources involved) that it's just as difficult to get a job at BigLaw as it is to get one for a desirable near-urban non-profit, for different reasons.  Neither of you have sufficiently countered this assertion of Miss P's.

The only counter you've given that may hold some validity is that it's easier to get a job with a non-profit or PD office in a small town somewhere than it is to get any position anywhere in a large metropolitan center.  However, an argument has been put forth to counter that, one which makes sense: in those places, offices prefer to hire laterals with experience before they hire new grads who will require training and lots of patience.  This rings even stronger in our current economic climate -- fewer positions, less funding available to train noobs, more experienced lawyers losing their spots at firms or trying to get the @#!* out of the stifling economic climate of those big cities.

I don't see how it's obvious that it should be easier to get these jobs than other jobs, neither objectively nor subjectively.  Even "crappy" non-profits are extremely constrained by funding concerns and rarely take in new hires; they have small offices for a reason.  It is a similar story for PD/DA offices in smaller regions.

I'm not saying these jobs don't exist.  I'm saying that P's argument makes sense, and your scoffing dismissal of it doesn't.
I do not like hats.
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I would not like them near cats.
I would not like them made out of mats.

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Re: Complete Failure
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2008, 12:57:31 AM »
Oh, and for the record, you two have been elitist pricks since you first stepped electronic foot on this board.  So don't go pretending you're not.  Own it.
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I would not like them near cats.
I would not like them made out of mats.

Drew P. Bottom

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Re: Complete Failure
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2008, 12:58:14 AM »
Oh and RE my earlier post, the person I know found some temporary work after passing the bar and found a clerkship soon thereafter, so all is fine. Same can happen for you.
"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." -- James Madison

thorc954

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Re: Complete Failure
« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2008, 09:06:24 AM »
All I was saying to the OP is that he/she should look into public interest as well.  It turns out he/she already did.  Therefore, the point is moot.

I don't think anything I have said since I got on this board is elitist, and either way, I dont care.  The topic of most of my conversations on here is big law because that is the only area of law that interests me.

That said, I forgot about craigslist.  OP, you may want to look on there for some work.  I have a friend that got his job off there (he summered somewhere than the firm merged and they didnt take his class).

Anyway, Miss P., I never said that the OP had bad grades.  I think he/her gpa put him/her over the curve for the school and probably closer to the top 30%.  Anyway, I have no experience searching for public interest jobs, but I was suggesting that OP look into them.  I think he/she has a connection to jersey as they live and went to school there and could likely find something there if they applied. 

Anyway, I am not going to bicker back and forth about this anymore since none of this is really helping the OP anyway. 

Miss P

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Re: Complete Failure
« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2008, 09:35:36 AM »
All I was saying to the OP is that he/she should look into public interest as well.  It turns out he/she already did.  Therefore, the point is moot.

I don't think anything I have said since I got on this board is elitist, and either way, I dont care.  The topic of most of my conversations on here is big law because that is the only area of law that interests me.

That said, I forgot about craigslist.  OP, you may want to look on there for some work.  I have a friend that got his job off there (he summered somewhere than the firm merged and they didnt take his class).

Anyway, Miss P., I never said that the OP had bad grades.  I think he/her gpa put him/her over the curve for the school and probably closer to the top 30%.  Anyway, I have no experience searching for public interest jobs, but I was suggesting that OP look into them.  I think he/she has a connection to jersey as they live and went to school there and could likely find something there if they applied. 

Anyway, I am not going to bicker back and forth about this anymore since none of this is really helping the OP anyway. 

Okay, likewise.  I agree that this probably isn't very helpful.  I just think that it looks a lot like self-congratulation when people who admit that their only interest is biglaw and that they have no experience looking for public interest jobs hop into a thread with an unfounded claim that public interest employment is less competitive than the private sector.  Your craigslist suggestion is a good one.

(I didn't accuse you of saying that the OP had bad grades, btw.)
That's cool how you referenced a case.

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Re: Complete Failure
« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2008, 09:42:34 AM »
All I was saying to the OP is that he/she should look into public interest as well.  It turns out he/she already did.  Therefore, the point is moot.

I don't think anything I have said since I got on this board is elitist, and either way, I dont care.  The topic of most of my conversations on here is big law because that is the only area of law that interests me.

That said, I forgot about craigslist.  OP, you may want to look on there for some work.  I have a friend that got his job off there (he summered somewhere than the firm merged and they didnt take his class).

Anyway, Miss P., I never said that the OP had bad grades.  I think he/her gpa put him/her over the curve for the school and probably closer to the top 30%.  Anyway, I have no experience searching for public interest jobs, but I was suggesting that OP look into them.  I think he/she has a connection to jersey as they live and went to school there and could likely find something there if they applied. 

Anyway, I am not going to bicker back and forth about this anymore since none of this is really helping the OP anyway. 

  I just think that it looks a lot like self-congratulation when people who admit that their only interest is biglaw and that they have no experience looking for public interest jobs hop into a thread with an unfounded claim that public interest employment is less competitive than the private sector. 

But that how LSD works = OP seeks advice about something ---> people respond who have never done that thing, been to that city, tried that method with advice in absolutes “must/all/everyone” about OP prospects --> someone posts who has done everything the OP asked about get ridiculed by know-it-alls. Talking out of ones ass like an expert in something they have never tried is what counts as advice on here.  ::)

PS. I’ll also add that first semester of 2L, from my experience, is when this “I know how everything works now and I'm an expert” mentality reaches its pinnacle. One of the few things I’ll say in absolutes is that there is 100% certainty that you don’t know how everything works. I was also as guilty as anyone here in doing this.
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