Cravath or Cleary

[OldCraig]

Starting at these firms and then lateralling for partner...or advanced associate status?? I know this is a path many people end up taking, but is it really one you want to resign yourself to when you can see it coming already? I mean, if that's the case, these firms are truly like enormous, blue bug-lamps praying on the ambitious.  It's good to be ambitious to an extent, until it becomes self-destructive. But I could be wrong, I mean, I've never worked at either of these firms.

As to whether the other prestigious New York firms are the same way, perhaps... But I don't think any of the others have as low an associate satisfaction report. One of my professors used to talk about his old law school roommate who wound up in NY V10 law.  He said the guy lived in his office, 2800 billables, and would even keep a pair of shoes and a change of clothes sitting at his office door in case he EVER had to leave the office, for any reason (so others would think he just popped down to the gym or to the crapper).  I mean, let's not pull any punches here, that's ridiculous.  That's worse than Tom Cruise in "The Firm" ridiculous.  Partly because there's no hooker sex, but also because you will very literally not have a life, and very literally lose your sense of self, and very literally not have much to show for it after 8 years of practicing (probably not partnership - unless you turn up some really naughty files that your firm keeps down in the Caymans). 

On second thought, go work there. Hell. Why do I even bother?

The idea of a flat ass, an office that smells like farts n' coffee, and redwood Oliver People's eyeglasses sounds superb. Send me a postcard.

[Harvey Dent]

Starting at these firms and then lateralling for partner...or advanced associate status?? I know this is a path many people end up taking, but is it really one you want to resign yourself to when you can see it coming already? I mean, if that's the case, these firms are truly like enormous, blue bug-lamps praying on the ambitious.  It's good to be ambitious to an extent, until it becomes self-destructive. But I could be wrong, I mean, I've never worked at either of these firms.

As to whether the other prestigious New York firms are the same way, perhaps... But I don't think any of the others have as low an associate satisfaction report. One of my professors used to talk about his old law school roommate who wound up in NY V10 law.  He said the guy lived in his office, 2800 billables, and would even keep a pair of shoes and a change of clothes sitting at his office door in case he EVER had to leave the office, for any reason (so others would think he just popped down to the gym or to the crapper).  I mean, let's not pull any punches here, that's ridiculous.  That's worse than Tom Cruise in "The Firm" ridiculous.  Partly because there's no hooker sex, but also because you will very literally not have a life, and very literally lose your sense of self, and very literally not have much to show for it after 8 years of practicing (probably not partnership - unless you turn up some really naughty files that your firm keeps down in the Caymans). 

On second thought, go work there. Hell. Why do I even bother?

What do you say about sucking it up for a few years and then reevaluating your options?  It's not like she's making a lifetime commitment to one career track here.

[OldCraig]

If that's your strategy, go Cravath. Although when you lateral, filling out the clearing of conflicts paperwork will be an ABSOLUTE RIOT.

[Harvey Dent]

If that's your strategy, go Cravath. Although when you lateral, filling out the clearing of conflicts paperwork will be an ABSOLUTE RIOT.

Assuming that IS the strategy for her, does Cravath actually put her in a significantly better position three years after graduation than does Cleary?

And yeah, that will kind of suck.  Glad it's not me.

[OldCraig]

I think if we assume she does the same, high caliber work, and proves herself, at both firms, the only difference b/w the two will be that she started at the firm which is currently thought to be more prestigious from a commercial standpoint.  However, as far as the actual two years she spends working there, I don't think it'd be much different.

[lola2008]

I think the characterization you describe is highly inaccurate for most BigLaw.  Sure you work a lot, but most places you're not billing 2800 hours.  But I appreciate the input.

[OldCraig]

Each firm's different, but like I said, V10's are V10's b/c associates work themselves into the floor. Why else do you think the profit margins are so high? Likability? They SAY their minimum billable is 2200, but if you put in two years of that you're canned. Also, your "fellow associates" will probably be back-biting and overly competitive. THEY'RE the ones who will MAKE you bill 2800 just to keep up with them on the "totem".

Again, good luck. I wish you the best.

[lola2008]

I think that grouping all the V10s into one lump category is grossly uninformed.  First of all Cravath and Cleary don't even have minimum billables and their compensation is lockstep.  Secondly, the cultures at different V10 firms are vastly different.  Davis Polk is very different from Cleary, for example and Kirkland and Cleary are pretty much polar opposites.  Third, everyone works a lot - inside and outside of the V10.  Sure you'll find a difference between Cleary and Kramer Levin, but between Cleary and Sidley or between Cleary and Winston&Strawn - not so much. 

[Miss P]

Now, the cons - 1) very low associate satisfaction levels at both Cravath/Cleary(http://www.judged.com/jdsearchfirm.php)

I believe that the three associates who rated Cleary on judged.com were unhappy (though not as unhappy as those who rated Cravath), but you should seek other sources before assuming that the two firms are the same.  I know two current and two former Cleary associates, and they all seem to like it as well as anyone I know in any NYC office likes his/her biglaw job. (Only my friend at Davis Polk is happier.)  It ranked first in this year's Vault 20 Best Firms To Work For (http://www.vault.com/nr/lawrankings.jsp?law2009=6&ch_id=242&best20=1), and it ranked in the top 15 on AmLaw's midlevel associate satisfaction survey (Cravath is not in the top 100). 

[Kirk Lazarus]

I worked at a v10 that is regarded as a "sweatshop" and I'll tell you that only Wachtell associates approach 2800 hours. Most of the people at my firm billed between 2100-2200 hours.