Cravath or Cleary

[Miss P]

Cleary, hands down, if you care about your quality of life at all.  I agree with Harvey's answers to your specific questions.

[OldCraig]

This to me is a no-brainer - Neither - but I won't go into the details here, unless you request it, because I don't want to offend anyone.

[Harvey Dent]

This to me is a no-brainer - Neither - but I won't go into the details here, unless you request it, because I don't want to offend anyone.

I want to be offended.  But this isn't my thread or anything so I guess I'll defer to OP.

[lola2008]

offend away

[Miss P]

My guess is that the offense somehow involves the use of the term "Queery."

[Lurking Third Year]

As you know, Cravath uses a very unique system to assign associates to partners and expose them to different practice areas.  I would decide whether you find that system attractive. 

Separately, I wouldn't worry about Cravath's lack of international offices.  While I think many firms increasingly will rely on overseas work, Cravath has been and I think will continue to be very profitable, and is probably better suited than most to endure any downturn in US-based work. 

[OldCraig]

Before I drop the hammer on these two firms, let me ask the original poster: WHY do YOU want to work at these firms?

[lola2008]

Well, for both of them I want to be doing high-level interesting work.  I also want to be at a place where the people are uniformly intelligent and interesting.  Furthermore, I want to be somewhere where I feel some job security - ie the firm isn't going to push back start dates, cancel its sumer program, no-offer summers, etc. 

Cleary, specifically, I am interested in the international practice, quirky-environment, flexibility, diversity, and women's initiatives.

Cravath, specifically, I like the rotation system where I get to work with one partner, the extremely high level of responsibility I get as a young associate, and the prestige/exit opportunities that Cravath on the resume would afford me.

I know that I want to be at a large NYC law firm, I have no problem working a lot (although I do want to be able to take vacation and have some time to see family and friends), and I think eventually I would like to make partner at a large NYC firm, although that is subject to change.

Now OldCraig, I'm really looking forward to hearing your reasons/opinion not to go to either of these firms and I'm also curious where you would go instead.  Thanks!

[OldCraig]

Ok, then let me be fair and even-handed.

First, the pros - both of the firms you mention pay top market, are high-end prestigious, and promise a high class association in the New York Legal scene.

Now, the cons - 1) very low associate satisfaction levels at both Cravath/Cleary(http://www.judged.com/jdsearchfirm.php) 2) Even commercial sources are reporting that associates get eaten alive/ground into "fine powder" at both firms 3) Your odds of making partner (which you say is a longterm goal) will be next to non-existent b/c to make yourself necessary to either of these firms you will need to get face time with clients and make your self indispensable to the firm. Firms like Cravath/Cleary didn't get to where they are by letting associates run the show - and only the fear of making clients unhappy/losing business will get you a partnership offer 4) New York is the worst city for pulling down profit on your salary, despite the big numbers firms are paying junior associates 5) Have you asked how projects are staffed? Word on the street, both of these firms put you in the cellar indefinitely *** this is just a short list

Finally, where would I go? Well, I have the luxury of not telling you where I'll be headed. Let's just say I strove for collegiality, opportunity, and excitement.

I wish you much success in finding a good fit for you.  I hope I haven't offended.

[Harvey Dent]

I'm really disappointed.  I was hoping to be at least MARGINALLY offended. 

Also, are these two firms really that much worse than NY practice in general along any of the lines that you pointed out?

Also, you may not make partner at either of these places but maybe starting out there gives you a better shot at becoming partner elsewhere?

I don't know.