Law School Discussion

John McCain's VP Selection is a Complete Disaster For The Republicans

maddlibs

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Re: Is John McCain's VP selection a disaster?
« Reply #60 on: September 11, 2008, 12:21:39 AM »
Is McCain's VP selection a Disaster? I know when you started this thread you did not know what we know today, September 10th, but by now it should be obvious.

It's a complete disaster!

McCain is beating or tied with Obama in every poll. He's up by 11 points among white women, raising millions in mere hours, has thousands (instead of hundreds) attending his campaign stops, has energized his base beyond all expectations, and is up 10 points among independents. I could have kept going but I got tired. Palin even has her own doll out because some bozo wants to make money off her popularity. Obama doesn't even have his own doll and he is more popular in Germany than David Hasselhoff!

Yes it's a disaster! What a stupid question!

I haven't been this upset since Grey Goose changed their formula- BURP

We'll be back soon enough. Obama won't stand for this. He is gonna push this naughty librarian book banner aside like we did with Hillary.

We taught Hil to sit down and get out of the gentleman's way, Palin will lean to sit as well.

Re: Is John McCain's VP selection a disaster?
« Reply #61 on: September 11, 2008, 12:13:14 PM »
I love being called a bigot because I have a sociology based opinion.
For the *ahem* brilliant law students here, this is the definition of bigot:

- a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own

Well that doesn't apply.  Intolerance isn't the correct description of my opinion.  We may disagree, but I certainly an tolerant about it.

-One strongly loyal to one's own social group, and irrationally intolerant or disdainful of others

That also doesn't apply - I am not loyal to my social group any more than anyone else and I am in no way irrationally intolerant or disdainful

-Narrow minded or prejudice in your beliefs.

Merely offering my opinion doesn't make me narrow minded or prejudiced - I am open to listening to others opinions and discussing them without preconception.  I may challenge an opinion or push for a better explanation, but that's just not the same thing.

So now that I've wasted time dealing with yet another personal attack, I will get to the meat of my argument.

People who are poor are usually poor due to their own decisions.  Naturally, sociological factors also influence relative wealth, but ultimately any person in this great country can achieve.  It may be difficult and there are always hurdles to overcome, but I do not believe that people are poor and it is because of economic policy.  It is because many Americans are unwilling to do the hard work that leads to success.  Way to many of us are content to be lazy.  Way to many of us see education as too difficult and unappealing.  Many of us are content to work 40 hours a week at a job we hate.  Many of us are content to never break sociological barriers and push themselves to get out of their own social class.

So if I blame the poor for anything, it is lack of effort.  It isn't a blanket statement, but find me an example of a person who worked hard in school, got a college degree, got a masters degree, works more than 40 hours a week, and applies the concepts of hard work and dedication that is poor and I'll agree that this is a policy issue.

Then again, you won't be able to find people like that.  The hardest workers get the biggest opportunities.  I've seen it first hand.  I left college when I was 19 and started working in restaurants and bars.  When I was 22 years old, I changed jobs from a chain restaurant and started working at a Chicago bar and restaurant.  I was hired as a doorman/bar back.  I stopped fights, kicked people out, restocked the bar, bussed tables, and helped out in any other way I could.  Inside of 6 months, I was promoted to part time bartender.  6 months later, I was training new staff members.  A month after than I was promoted to assistant manager.  Within 6 months of that promotion, I was tapped to help other restaurants run more efficiently and increase the bottom line.  3 months later, I was a GM in the company and moved to a store they were sure would close.  Inside of 3 months, I had a $15,000 net profit swing and turned one of the worst performing store into one of the best in the company, which had grown to 25 units.

I did it with a high school diploma, hard work, and a desire to succeed.  In terms of money, I was making close to $60k a year (or more, depending on the year) before my 25th birthday, well above poor and firmly inside the middle class.  Yes, this is nothing more than one example.  But it is proof that success is possible with hard work.

I know people who are poor.  In every case it is due to decisions they have made.  Some chose to be artists.  Others chose to drop out of school.  Some never finished high school.  Reaganomics didn't take away opportunity  - it put opportunity squarely in the hands of the American people.  Many grasped it with both hands and made themselves into a success.  Others chose to blame Reagan for their problems and did nothing to elevate themselves.  If a poor half-black kid from a broken home can graduate from law school and eventually run for President, nothing is impossible.  To argue otherwise is a mistake and relies upon stereotypical victimhood.

Hence, most poor people are poor because of their own decisions.  Most people who are facing or have faced foreclosure did so because they agreed to loans they either didn't understand or figured they knew better.  They didn't know better.  While finishing up college, I was THIS CLOSE to buying a home with no money down, an adjustable apy, and a huge balloon payment.  When I brought it to my dad, he laughed and told me that the loan was stupid and I'd be hurt by it in the long run.  He was right and I didn't sign.  I rented.  I pay less in rent than the average mortgage, but no one can foreclose on my apartment.

The point is that you either believe the governments responsibility is to solve everyone's problems or that we are accountable for our own decisions.





Re: Is John McCain's VP selection a disaster?
« Reply #62 on: September 11, 2008, 01:09:02 PM »
excellent point and well taken.

I agree that other sociological factors come into play (I thought I alluded to that in my post).  It becomes systemic when people stop searching for ways to overcome their obstacles and instead get cozy with victimhood.

A friend of mine grew up in Cabrini.  His parents were on welfare and almost never worked.  When he was a kid, he promised himself that he'd find a way out - a path to a better life.  He worked hard at academics and graduated near the top of his class.  It wasn't cool, so he had few friends.  The cool kids were playing basketball and getting involved with gangs while he was studying at the library, staying after school to get extra help from teachers, and working part time to save money for college.  He got a partial academic scholarship to a state school (UIUC) and worked the whole way through.  He had to take loans, but he made it.  Immediately after college, he went to law school while working part time at a law firm.  Now he works in the state's attorneys office and plans to leave in a few years to form a private practice with some law school friends.

My point is that yes, sociological factors come into play, but individuals have the power to rise above.  Many times the difference between those that excel at life and those who struggle is that those to make it, do so through hard work and dedication.  It would be great if we could undo the damage done by uneducated single parents who never do anything to succeed, but we can't.  All we can do is hope to inspire those who can to actually step outside of what is convenient and easy and see a bigger goal.

The democratic stance on this tends to be: "We are the government and we are here to help." while the republican view is: "We'll help you out, but you are going to have to work hard."  Personally, I believe that democratic policies are part and parcel for why we have these social issues.  You may believe otherwise (and I respect that, believe it or not).

Miss P

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Re: Is John McCain's VP selection a disaster?
« Reply #63 on: September 11, 2008, 02:18:28 PM »
I love being called a bigot because I have a sociology based opinion.
For the *ahem* brilliant law students here, this is the definition of bigot:
[etc.]

I note that though I did not call you a bigot, you chose to respond to those who came close and not to me. 

...

I left college when I was 19 and started working in restaurants and bars.  When I was 22 years old, I changed jobs from a chain restaurant and started working at a Chicago bar and restaurant.  I was hired as a doorman/bar back.  I stopped fights, kicked people out, restocked the bar, bussed tables, and helped out in any other way I could.  Inside of 6 months, I was promoted to part time bartender.  6 months later, I was training new staff members.  A month after than I was promoted to assistant manager.  Within 6 months of that promotion, I was tapped to help other restaurants run more efficiently and increase the bottom line.  3 months later, I was a GM in the company and moved to a store they were sure would close.  Inside of 3 months, I had a $15,000 net profit swing and turned one of the worst performing store into one of the best in the company, which had grown to 25 units.

I did it with a high school diploma, hard work, and a desire to succeed.  In terms of money, I was making close to $60k a year (or more, depending on the year) before my 25th birthday, well above poor and firmly inside the middle class.

How did you fit your military service in?

bloomlaw

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Re: Is John McCain's VP selection a disaster?
« Reply #64 on: September 11, 2008, 07:06:07 PM »

People who are poor are usually poor due to their own decisions. 


This makes me laugh out loud, it is so blatantly not true. 95% of people are poor because of social and economic situation they were given at the start of life. I want you to answer these questions honestly. What percentage of rich kids that work hard end up poor? What percentage of poor kids that work equally hard end up poor? I believe the goal of the democratic party is make these numbers even and as close to ZERO as possible. Of course, liberal policies will also help lazy people stay lazy in some aspect, but that is not the point. Reducing these numbers to 0 is the point. Unless your hatred of laziness overrules your desire to reward those who

And the welfare program here isn't anywhere near as bad as some other countries. I'm living in New Zealand now, and the welfare program is unbelievable. I think 17% of the population lives on the doll from the government, which pays the unemployed roughly $200 American a week for doing nothing. And if they have children, this number is added by $100/child. And this country has a higher standard of living on all accounts, so go figure.

I would also like to touch on your idea about wealth and QOL being a result of decisisons. This is true to an extent, but anyone who comes from a middle or upper class family has a buffer zone. I came from a lower middle class family, a son of a teacher and a police officer, and in high school, I didn't know what I was going to do about college. My father, the teacher, never had to pay a dollar for college because he got a college football scholarship. My mom, a police officer, never went to college. Their advice to me in high school was to avoid taking on any kind of debt, because, well, that's how they had lived their life. Their tip for me was, find a way to pay for college, and they suggested the military.
Luckily, I was born athletic enough to get a college scholarship. If that wouldn't have happened, being such a liberal, I wouldn't have joined the military, and I don't know what I would have done. I didn't mind working hard, but the most I had ever had to my name was about $1000, so I couldn't comprehend owing $40,000 for undergrad or $100,000 for law school. This outlook came from a lack of understanding which stemmed from a lack of education, one of the main causes of being poor. These people, myself and my hardworking, intelligent parents included, didn't understand the system, and purely through luck, and NOT HARD WORK, i was able to succeed.




Naturally, sociological factors also influence relative wealth, but ultimately any person in this great country can achieve.   It is because many Americans are unwilling to do the hard work that leads to success.  Way to many of us are content to be lazy.  Way to many of us see education as too difficult and unappealing. 


Please do not say what hard work is. Working 50 hours at a bar/restaurant is not hard work, and apparently you were in the military, so you should know that. You got to where you are, not by working hard, but working (i assume, and hope) long hours, which is difficult in itself, and by working intelligently. And, mostly, by luck. I guess that is the difference, you took a favorable situation, worked it, and succeeded, and you view the cause to be your own hard work and your innate abilities, where most people would see it as a combination of luck, hard work, and your innate abilities.


Kirk Lazarus

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Re: John McCain's VP Selection is a Complete Disaster For The Republicans
« Reply #65 on: September 11, 2008, 07:36:26 PM »
Her interview today was a complete disaster. Charlie had to explain the Bush doctrine to her.

Harvey Dent

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Re: John McCain's VP Selection is a Complete Disaster For The Republicans
« Reply #66 on: September 11, 2008, 08:34:24 PM »
Her interview today was a complete disaster. Charlie had to explain the Bush doctrine to her.

So she's dumber for the experience?

Kirk Lazarus

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Re: John McCain's VP Selection is a Complete Disaster For The Republicans
« Reply #67 on: September 11, 2008, 08:51:36 PM »
Her interview today was a complete disaster. Charlie had to explain the Bush doctrine to her.

So she's dumber for the experience?

No. The mere fact that she tried to answer the question without knowing what Charlie was talking about indicates to me that she's just like Bush - giving opinions and making decisions without complete information.

Harvey Dent

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Re: John McCain's VP Selection is a Complete Disaster For The Republicans
« Reply #68 on: September 11, 2008, 08:55:03 PM »
Her interview today was a complete disaster. Charlie had to explain the Bush doctrine to her.

So she's dumber for the experience?

No. The mere fact that she tried to answer the question without knowing what Charlie was talking about indicates to me that she's just like Bush - giving opinions and making decisions without complete information.

...But someone explained something to her that Bush came up with.  You know how usually getting things explained to you makes you smarter?  I would think it was the opposite for stuff Bush came up with.  No?

bloomlaw

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Re: John McCain's VP Selection is a Complete Disaster For The Republicans
« Reply #69 on: September 11, 2008, 08:59:59 PM »
Her interview today was a complete disaster. Charlie had to explain the Bush doctrine to her.

So she's dumber for the experience?

No. The mere fact that she tried to answer the question without knowing what Charlie was talking about indicates to me that she's just like Bush - giving opinions and making decisions without complete information.

...But someone explained something to her that Bush came up with.  You know how usually getting things explained to you makes you smarter?  I would think it was the opposite for stuff Bush came up with.  No?

I would hope that a woman who is just a John McCain heart attack from the presidency knows enough about presidential policy that members of the media don't need to advise her on issues.