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Another Tier 3/4 question

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Re: Another Tier 3/4 question
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2008, 11:44:17 AM »
Ok peoples...

  • Stop trying to find a rule where one doesn't exist.  Every firm is different.  Every law school graduate is different.
  • Any tier one graduate who has passed the bar and is "still looking for a job that pays $50k" has made a huge mistake somewhere and this situation is far from common.
  • Any firm could require 3000 billables, any firm could require 1200 billables - size doesn't necessarily matter.
  • Stop focusing on $160k starting salaries.  Start looking at longterm.  (sometimes BIGLAW is best long term, but not always)

Re: Another Tier 3/4 question
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2008, 12:01:58 PM »
Any tier one graduate who has passed the bar and is "still looking for a job that pays $50k" has made a huge mistake somewhere and this situation is far from common.

It is much more common than you think.  Especially schools ranked 50-30.  In other words, it's not uncommon to hear about a Wake Forest, UF, SMU, etc. graduates being unemployed.  In that case, the UF graduates are better off though due to low debt.

Matthies

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Re: Another Tier 3/4 question
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2008, 12:19:59 PM »
Ok peoples...

  • Stop trying to find a rule where one doesn't exist.  Every firm is different.  Every law school graduate is different.
  • Any tier one graduate who has passed the bar and is "still looking for a job that pays $50k" has made a huge mistake somewhere and this situation is far from common.
  • Any firm could require 3000 billables, any firm could require 1200 billables - size doesn't necessarily matter.
  • Stop focusing on $160k starting salaries.  Start looking at longterm.  (sometimes BIGLAW is best long term, but not always)

Bobot,

While I appreciate your candor, you have violated several LSD rules in posting it. You did not speak in broad generalizations about things you donít have experience with. [violation 1] You did not give anecdotal evidence that your cousins best friends college roommate went to a school ranked in the 30s was top .05% on EIC of two law reviews and argued and won a case before the supreme court during his clinic 3rd year could only get a job paying $4.27 to do document review then say therefore no one gets a job from any school outside the top 14. [violation 2]. Please conform your posts to traditional talking out of one ass standards this board has come to expect.

Thanks you for your prompt attention to this matter,

Matthies

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Re: Another Tier 3/4 question
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2008, 07:55:28 PM »
Any tier one graduate who has passed the bar and is "still looking for a job that pays $50k" has made a huge mistake somewhere and this situation is far from common.

It is much more common than you think.  Especially schools ranked 50-30.  In other words, it's not uncommon to hear about a Wake Forest, UF, SMU, etc. graduates being unemployed.  In that case, the UF graduates are better off though due to low debt.

I go to a tier one school in the 40s...  ;)

It's not nearly as common as you think.

Re: Another Tier 3/4 question
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2008, 09:48:03 PM »

I go to a tier one school in the 40s...  ;)

It's not nearly as common as you think.

The key word is, you go there, probably still a naive 1L or 2L. Come back in two years and report to us how your classmates are doing.

Matthies

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Re: Another Tier 3/4 question
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2008, 08:55:27 AM »

I go to a tier one school in the 40s...  ;)

It's not nearly as common as you think.

The key word is, you go there, probably still a naive 1L or 2L. Come back in two years and report to us how your classmates are doing.

Iíll say that of my friends, from my T2 everyone from the class of 07 and 08 has a job. Granted I donít know everyone in the classes, and I only tend to be friends with the type of people who know how to find a job, so that may not be a good sample. I also know two people from class of 2007 who are on their third jobs since then, these folks I know from my Inn, and well, them having had 3 or more jobs by now does not surprise me much at all knowing those two. They still have not figured out how legal hiring works. At least they are in the Inn so that helped them each get their most recent job. But I would stay they represent the ďstandard studentĒ who has real trouble figuring out how to get a good legal job if the school does not hand them one.

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Re: Another Tier 3/4 question
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2008, 10:23:20 AM »

I go to a tier one school in the 40s...  ;)

It's not nearly as common as you think.

The key word is, you go there, probably still a naive 1L or 2L. Come back in two years and report to us how your classmates are doing.

Yawn.

I've spoken with  ~50 recent graduates (only a few were on law review).  Each one of them is gainfully employed.

My grades are pretty poor, I have a job.

Re: Another Tier 3/4 question
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2008, 10:26:41 AM »
Ok peoples...

  • Stop trying to find a rule where one doesn't exist.  Every firm is different.  Every law school graduate is different.
  • Any tier one graduate who has passed the bar and is "still looking for a job that pays $50k" has made a huge mistake somewhere and this situation is far from common.
  • Any firm could require 3000 billables, any firm could require 1200 billables - size doesn't necessarily matter.
  • Stop focusing on $160k starting salaries.  Start looking at longterm.  (sometimes BIGLAW is best long term, but not always)

Bobot,

While I appreciate your candor, you have violated several LSD rules in posting it. You did not speak in broad generalizations about things you donít have experience with. [violation 1] You did not give anecdotal evidence that your cousins best friends college roommate went to a school ranked in the 30s was top .05% on EIC of two law reviews and argued and won a case before the supreme court during his clinic 3rd year could only get a job paying $4.27 to do document review then say therefore no one gets a job from any school outside the top 14. [violation 2]. Please conform your posts to traditional talking out of one ass standards this board has come to expect.

Thanks you for your prompt attention to this matter,

Matthies


Genius. I completely agree

Re: Another Tier 3/4 question
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2008, 10:28:08 AM »
Any tier one graduate who has passed the bar and is "still looking for a job that pays $50k" has made a huge mistake somewhere and this situation is far from common.

It is much more common than you think.  Especially schools ranked 50-30.  In other words, it's not uncommon to hear about a Wake Forest, UF, SMU, etc. graduates being unemployed.  In that case, the UF graduates are better off though due to low debt.

I go to a tier one school in the 40s...  ;)

It's not nearly as common as you think.

Me also.

Re: Another Tier 3/4 question
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2008, 10:58:05 AM »
For the record, I do not know a single person at my law school (or at any other "T14", for that matter) who got his or her law firm job through personal connections that existed prior to law school.  And yes, I know a large number of people at my school.

And in case anybody wonders why I put "T14" in quotation marks, it's because I think the category is stupid.

C'mon, you can't tell me that there are not sizeable numbers in each class who go to those schools only because their daddy went there. Please!

Legacy admissions are almost nonexistent in law school.  Aside from AA, law school admissions are incredibly meritocratic/numbers-driven, if only by necessity.


If you pay $43k per year to attend an elite law school, that's on you. If mommy and daddy pay for it, great! Yet, if you incur that debt all on your own and gamble with your future, you are either far braver than I. Why let your debt load dictate your job options?

Here's the problem:

1.  Most law schools cost about the same amount. 
2.  At an elite school, you're pretty much guaranteed a high-paying job.
3.  At a non-elite school, you're clearly not.
4.  The non-elite school is therefore much more of a gamble, generally speaking.
5.  Even if you get a full-ride, you're investing 3 years of your life, lost earning opportunities, etc.  There's no guarantee you'll make law review.  So there's no guarantee you'll get a respectable job.

Either way, it's a gamble.  Even if you go T14, you may hate the work, and quit after a year.  But that's generally a more secure gamble than attending a lower-ranked school, which could handicap your entire career, depending on what you want to do.

Put another way:  Why let your pedigree/short-sightedness dictate/limit your job options?

A non-elite law school may be a gamble for you. I, however, have 200 clients that I can call for work. Of those 200, I bet one puts me in contact with someone that leads to a decent job. I've also met several attorneys, from associate to partner, at several firms in conferences and various training sessions over the last two years. If you didn't, that's not my problem. I've also built relationships with regulators at both the SEC and the IRS. If you didn't, again, that's not my problem. So, while an elite school might matter to some, to me education is worthless. I've worked with attorneys on both sides of the spectrum: Harvard and T4. Honestly, I can't see a difference in competence levels.

I spent the last week at SEC training with 400 accountants and about 50 attorneys. Of the 50 attorneys, less than half came from "elite" schools. I doubt where they went to school made much of a difference in their career. I can tell you what nearly all of them had in common... a background in accounting, finance, or business before entering law school. So, I don't know about every specialty, but securities attorneys seem to come from a variety of schools.

What division of the SEC?