Law School Discussion

wal-mart and unions

Re: wal-mart and unions
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2008, 09:52:21 AM »
Earlcat, be serious. Walmart makes over $12,000,000,000.00 in NET profit (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/global500/2008/snapshots/2255.html) per year. As a privately owned company, even if they paid $1000 per year extra to each employee (approx. 2 mil.) for benefits,--considering how many of those people work part time this would be unexpected--they would still have over $10,000,000,000.00 in take home profits. If they want to keep making that money, they will have to keep employing people, and you can't outsource retail.

Making it POSSIBLE for walmart employees to unionize is not going to increase your taxes, instead it will be more likely to lower them when walmart can stop handing out brochures on how to obtain welfare support.

Ah, I just love a good wealth redistribution argument.  Sure, I'm all for punishing the wealthy who worked hard, innovated, invested, and created a business!  Those poor workers, under threats of violence or death, have all been forced to work at wal-mart!  They DESERVE more money because they show up for work part time, sometimes even on time, and are occasional helpful to the customers.  Have you ever BEEN to wal mart?

Please explain to me the idea that wal mart owes their employees anything more than an agreed upon wage and some hours.  Last time I checked, no one is forced to work at wal mart.  And the wal mart starting wage is well above the minimum.  And their average hourly wage is well above the norm.  And most companies won't give part timers health insurance. 

So now that you've been confused by questions, I am wondering if you can explain to me why wal mart should lose a couple of billion dollars to pay unskilled laborers who get paid as well or better than other uninsured unskilled laborers?  I adore white, rich liberal guilt so....
People don't quit being accountants to work at wal mart as a greeter.  The average hourly wal mart employee has a high school education or less. They tend not to care about customer service, many of them steal from wal mart, and for the most part are some of the laziest workers our society has ever produced.  Having run businesses before, I can tell you first hand that hourly employees steal.  Alot.  Every chance they get.  Don't think they are lazy?  Go take a walk in your local wal mart.  Watch these people hide so they can't be asked questions.  Watch them take half an hour to stock a shelf that should take 5 minutes.  Watch them take breaks every 15 minutes.  I once went to a wal mart and my girlfriend ran in.  Two employees were sitting outside, in uniform, smoking.  It was a windy day.  I didn't see it, but a cart had been pushed by the wind, rather slowly, and was heading for my car.  I noticed it because I turned my head to see what they were looking at.  It rolled right past them and hit my car, scratching my door.  Yeah, these aren't the best workers on the planet.
No one DESERVES health insurance.  No one owes anyone health insurance.  There is no law requiring an employer to provide it.  There is no custom where it is expected.  The reasons liberal like to cry to the heaven about how unjust it is that companies that are in the business of making money make money without insuring their unskilled laborers is because they know that no matter what these people were paid, they wouldn't buy their own health insurance anyway.  And why would they when the new iPhone 3G is out?
Walmart didn't lie, cheat and steal to get where they are.  They worked hard.  They created jobs.  The provided a way for people to save money on the items they need.  The fact that they make money isn't something to be used against them.  It should be applauded.
Sam Walton grew up the son of a farmer during the great depression and eventually became the richest man in America.  I wonder if Sam whined about not having health insurance?
Welcome to America - land of the whiners.
When our parents parents couldn't find work, they moved.  We stand in unemployment lines and try to lay blame at the bush administrations feet.

And let's not forget what the unions actually do - they raise labor costs while stealing membership dues from every check, often resulting is a zero sum advantage or, in some cases, workers pocketing less money that before the union arrived.
Unions have become businesses of their own with their own money hungry leaders bilking their memberships while providing little actual help.

And none of this will matter if Obama wins because he's going to take corporate profits and raise taxes, forcing employers to lay off employees, plunging our nation into a depression (just like what happened just before the great depression - look it up.  it's called history).

Re: wal-mart and unions
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2008, 10:56:40 AM »
Earlcat, be serious. Walmart makes over $12,000,000,000.00 in NET profit (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/global500/2008/snapshots/2255.html) per year. As a privately owned company, even if they paid $1000 per year extra to each employee (approx. 2 mil.) for benefits,--considering how many of those people work part time this would be unexpected--they would still have over $10,000,000,000.00 in take home profits. If they want to keep making that money, they will have to keep employing people, and you can't outsource retail.

Making it POSSIBLE for walmart employees to unionize is not going to increase your taxes, instead it will be more likely to lower them when walmart can stop handing out brochures on how to obtain welfare support.

Ah, I just love a good wealth redistribution argument.  Sure, I'm all for punishing the wealthy who worked hard, innovated, invested, and created a business!  Those poor workers, under threats of violence or death, have all been forced to work at wal-mart!  They DESERVE more money because they show up for work part time, sometimes even on time, and are occasional helpful to the customers.  Have you ever BEEN to wal mart?

Please explain to me the idea that wal mart owes their employees anything more than an agreed upon wage and some hours.  Last time I checked, no one is forced to work at wal mart.  And the wal mart starting wage is well above the minimum.  And their average hourly wage is well above the norm.  And most companies won't give part timers health insurance. 

So now that you've been confused by questions, I am wondering if you can explain to me why wal mart should lose a couple of billion dollars to pay unskilled laborers who get paid as well or better than other uninsured unskilled laborers?  I adore white, rich liberal guilt so....
People don't quit being accountants to work at wal mart as a greeter.  The average hourly wal mart employee has a high school education or less. They tend not to care about customer service, many of them steal from wal mart, and for the most part are some of the laziest workers our society has ever produced.  Having run businesses before, I can tell you first hand that hourly employees steal.  Alot.  Every chance they get.  Don't think they are lazy?  Go take a walk in your local wal mart.  Watch these people hide so they can't be asked questions.  Watch them take half an hour to stock a shelf that should take 5 minutes.  Watch them take breaks every 15 minutes.  I once went to a wal mart and my girlfriend ran in.  Two employees were sitting outside, in uniform, smoking.  It was a windy day.  I didn't see it, but a cart had been pushed by the wind, rather slowly, and was heading for my car.  I noticed it because I turned my head to see what they were looking at.  It rolled right past them and hit my car, scratching my door.  Yeah, these aren't the best workers on the planet.
No one DESERVES health insurance.  No one owes anyone health insurance.  There is no law requiring an employer to provide it.  There is no custom where it is expected.  The reasons liberal like to cry to the heaven about how unjust it is that companies that are in the business of making money make money without insuring their unskilled laborers is because they know that no matter what these people were paid, they wouldn't buy their own health insurance anyway.  And why would they when the new iPhone 3G is out?
Walmart didn't lie, cheat and steal to get where they are.  They worked hard.  They created jobs.  The provided a way for people to save money on the items they need.  The fact that they make money isn't something to be used against them.  It should be applauded.
Sam Walton grew up the son of a farmer during the great depression and eventually became the richest man in America.  I wonder if Sam whined about not having health insurance?
Welcome to America - land of the whiners.
When our parents parents couldn't find work, they moved.  We stand in unemployment lines and try to lay blame at the bush administrations feet.

And let's not forget what the unions actually do - they raise labor costs while stealing membership dues from every check, often resulting is a zero sum advantage or, in some cases, workers pocketing less money that before the union arrived.
Unions have become businesses of their own with their own money hungry leaders bilking their memberships while providing little actual help.

And none of this will matter if Obama wins because he's going to take corporate profits and raise taxes, forcing employers to lay off employees, plunging our nation into a depression (just like what happened just before the great depression - look it up.  it's called history).


Are you f'ing kidding me?  First, the Walton Family didn't do squat to start that business or innovate or any of that other crap.  Sam Walton was possibly one of the great businessmen of the 20th century.  The Walton Family sits back and collects the billions from Sam's creation and the sharks they have running the corporation. So let's not hold them up as great innovators of industry.  Wal Mart is about the bottom line and that is okay in a capitalist economy.  But it is America and under the current laws of the land, folks have a right to unionize and fight for better working conditions, benefits and pay. 

Now I'm not a huge fan of unions, my dad used to always say, "without the unions the company will screw you...with the unions, the company AND the union screw you."  My lone exp with unions as a member of the Teamsters at UPS, sort of reinforced that.  As an employee of Wal Mart, what is worse, being in a union or having to go to those "Rah, Rah" sessions every morning?   

And the Great Depression was caused by something called laissez faire economic policies of a pathetic Republican President, you know Herbert Hoover?  The roarin 20's, a time of unregulated speculation and irresponsible business practices.  Sound familiar?  Say what you want about FDR's socialist policies but he inherited that mess from that idiot Hoover, just like Obama will inherit this mess from W. 

Re: wal-mart and unions
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2008, 01:19:55 PM »

I don't care about Walmart's profits, I care about my own taxes going up because of the cost of benefits for their underpaid employees. That, and the exploited workers themselves.  I have nothing good to say about Walmart.

1.  Define underpaid. 

2.  Define exploited.

Seems to me the workers at WalMart get a fair wage for what they do.  If you don't want to pay higher taxes for someone's benefits, there's other ways to stop that.

http://www.mindfully.org/Industry/2004/Wal-Mart-Workers-Lock-Ins18jan04.htm

I know, you'll probably say that these employees have choices and could work elsewhere.  However, as has already been mentioned, when you don't have much education and you're living in a town where many other smaller businesses have likely gone under due to Walmart's presence, that tends to reduce your options quite substantially.

Re: wal-mart and unions
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2008, 02:08:50 PM »

I don't care about Walmart's profits, I care about my own taxes going up because of the cost of benefits for their underpaid employees. That, and the exploited workers themselves.  I have nothing good to say about Walmart.

1.  Define underpaid. 

2.  Define exploited.

Seems to me the workers at WalMart get a fair wage for what they do.  If you don't want to pay higher taxes for someone's benefits, there's other ways to stop that.

http://www.mindfully.org/Industry/2004/Wal-Mart-Workers-Lock-Ins18jan04.htm

I know, you'll probably say that these employees have choices and could work elsewhere.  However, as has already been mentioned, when you don't have much education and you're living in a town where many other smaller businesses have likely gone under due to Walmart's presence, that tends to reduce your options quite substantially.

If you can't find a job you like, you have a few options:
1) Stop working altogether and suck at the teat of the government
2) Do like unskilled workers have done since the dawn of capitalism - move where the jobs are.
3) Suck it up, work, get a college degree and get a better job.
4) Suck it up and just work hard.  there are countless stories of people starting as stock boys, becoming store managers and moving up through the company.  OR
5) Whine and female dog, try to unionize, force walmart to go non-union anyway and hire other people while your unemployed ass whines and bitches even more.

Re: wal-mart and unions
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2008, 02:23:20 PM »

Are you f'ing kidding me?  First, the Walton Family didn't do squat to start that business or innovate or any of that other crap.  Sam Walton was possibly one of the great businessmen of the 20th century.  The Walton Family sits back and collects the billions from Sam's creation and the sharks they have running the corporation. So let's not hold them up as great innovators of industry.  Wal Mart is about the bottom line and that is okay in a capitalist economy.  But it is America and under the current laws of the land, folks have a right to unionize and fight for better working conditions, benefits and pay. 

Now I'm not a huge fan of unions, my dad used to always say, "without the unions the company will screw you...with the unions, the company AND the union screw you."  My lone exp with unions as a member of the Teamsters at UPS, sort of reinforced that.  As an employee of Wal Mart, what is worse, being in a union or having to go to those "Rah, Rah" sessions every morning?   

And the Great Depression was caused by something called laissez faire economic policies of a pathetic Republican President, you know Herbert Hoover?  The roarin 20's, a time of unregulated speculation and irresponsible business practices.  Sound familiar?  Say what you want about FDR's socialist policies but he inherited that mess from that idiot Hoover, just like Obama will inherit this mess from W. 

Sam Walton started the business.  He ran it for decades, building it into the enormous empire that it has become.  He left it to his children.  That's 100% on Sam Walton.  You cannot blame the modern day Waltons without understanding that Sam left it to them, which is well within his rights to do.  How they run it is quite literally of no concern to you. 
You are correct.  This is America and WalMart has to follow the laws of this land.  There is no law that says that a company has to work with or recognize a union under all circumstances.  Unions have no power if they represent people who don't work for anyone.  WalMart doesn't want their workforce to unionize because this will drive up costs.  In response to this, Walmart is forced to make some business decisions.  They can bow to the unions and increase their prices, hurting the consumer and their business.  They can bow to the unions and not raise prices, which reduces net income and is bad for business.  They can fire every unionized worker and only hire non-union workers, which is bad for the morons who think $9+ an hour isn't a good wage for someone with no skills.  Or they can shutter the business and fade away, which is bad for everyone.
Let's not forget - the Waltons don't "need" anymore money.  Currently, that family is the wealthiest family in the United States, if not the world.  But who would be the most hurt by that, the billionaires?  The government?  The unskilled laborers who won't be able to find jobs now that tens of thousands of people just like them are looking for the same jobs?  The communities that rely on walmart to provide them with quality goods at affordable prices?  The local municipalities who rely on Walmart for revenue?
Please.  Your dad is correct.  All unions do is punish the workers further and the businesses.  Unions were necessary before we had discrimination polcies, the minimum wage and safety standards, but right now they do far more damage than they do good.
Look at the auto industry.  GM has to pay workers NOT TO WORK.  The unions are primarily responsible for the big 3 automakers massive problems.  When the next one falls and millions are put out of work, thank the unions for guaranteeing everything and delivering nothing.  Along the way, the unions have taken hundreds of millions of workers dollars and squandered it while destroying the very companies that pay these workers and provide them with a very good living.
The great depression was made greater by liberal taxation in the lead up to the depression.  It's a fact.  The country was in a recession and the left won the white house, then instituted massive tax hikes, plunging this nation into the darkest of economic times.
Go read about it from an economist viewpoint and you will see that raising taxes when people are struggling tends to destroy economies, not build them up.  Tax the rich and they'll stop creating jobs.  They will lay people off to balance their books.  The poor get poorer and the rich find a way to get richer.
By the way, Sam Walton wasn't rich.  He was poor.  His father was a farmer who later got into the mortgage business.  Sam joined the army and when he returned, he bought a franchise with $5000 of his own money that he saved while in the army and a small loan.  He then opened several franchises and eventually his own stores, gradually evolving them into walmart.
Hating the rich and accusing them of stealing is intellectually dishonest.  I've watched the anti-walmart documentaries and found them to be inherently ridiculous.

EarlCat

  • ****
  • 2082
  • i'm in ur LSAT blowin' ur curve
    • View Profile
    • EarlDoesLSAT.com
Re: wal-mart and unions
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2008, 03:19:07 PM »
If they want to keep making that money, they will have to keep employing people, and you can't outsource retail.

You can't?
...and I didn't say they'd ALL be unemployed, but it's ridiculous to think WalMart would employ as many people at a higher wage as they would at a lower wage.  Those who either get laid off or don't get hired at all will be unemployed.

Quote
Making it POSSIBLE for walmart employees to unionize is not going to increase your taxes, instead it will be more likely to lower them when walmart can stop handing out brochures on how to obtain welfare support.

Fail.  The original discussion was about what would happen if Democrats win in November.  1) WalMart will get unionized.  2) Your taxes will go up.

Re: wal-mart and unions
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2008, 05:02:24 PM »
The crash had nothing to do with liberal tax policies.  Now it is arguable that liberal policies may have worsened the depression initially but laissez faire economic policies would have destroyed the country, literally.  Anarchy, chaos, revolution. Chicago School, laissez faire, free market, trickle down economics, etc. do nothing but concentrate wealth in a very small number of people...and lead to revolution.  See nearly all of South America in the last 40 years...

Re: wal-mart and unions
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2008, 05:02:32 PM »

I don't care about Walmart's profits, I care about my own taxes going up because of the cost of benefits for their underpaid employees. That, and the exploited workers themselves.  I have nothing good to say about Walmart.

1.  Define underpaid. 

2.  Define exploited.

Seems to me the workers at WalMart get a fair wage for what they do.  If you don't want to pay higher taxes for someone's benefits, there's other ways to stop that.

http://www.mindfully.org/Industry/2004/Wal-Mart-Workers-Lock-Ins18jan04.htm

I know, you'll probably say that these employees have choices and could work elsewhere.  However, as has already been mentioned, when you don't have much education and you're living in a town where many other smaller businesses have likely gone under due to Walmart's presence, that tends to reduce your options quite substantially.

If you can't find a job you like, you have a few options:
1) Stop working altogether and suck at the teat of the government
2) Do like unskilled workers have done since the dawn of capitalism - move where the jobs are.
3) Suck it up, work, get a college degree and get a better job.
4) Suck it up and just work hard.  there are countless stories of people starting as stock boys, becoming store managers and moving up through the company.  OR
5) Whine and female dog, try to unionize, force walmart to go non-union anyway and hire other people while your unemployed ass whines and bitches even more.


There are a lot of responses to your points, but I don't feel like going line by line right now.  I do, however, want to address the main point behind your post.  Are you saying that Walmart's practice of locking in employees and threatening them if they attempt to leave (even when in need of medical attention) is not exploitative?

Julie Fern

  • *****
  • 25797
  • hillary clinton say "boo!"
    • View Profile
Re: wal-mart and unions
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2008, 05:55:48 PM »
did you say that when took new job? julie guessing not.

No, the previous guy got paid more, so their cost of labor went down.

well, maybe if you in union...

Julie Fern

  • *****
  • 25797
  • hillary clinton say "boo!"
    • View Profile
Re: wal-mart and unions
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2008, 05:58:50 PM »

Please explain to me the idea that wal mart owes their employees anything more than an agreed upon wage and some hours. Last time I checked, no one is forced to work at wal mart. And the wal mart starting wage is well above the minimum. And their average hourly wage is well above the norm. And most companies won't give part timers health insurance.


julie never say otherwise.  issue is for what they can contract.  (actually, issue wal-mart's political campaigning for mcsame.)