Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?

[Kirk Lazarus]

More: not all people of color have grown up in the hood or have been called racial slurs to their faces on a regular basis. A URM with the most cushy life has still been disadvantaged compared to a white guy.

Like Chris Rock said at one of his concerts: "Not one white dude in here would even trade places with ME...and I'm rich! That's how good it is to be white in America."

There are millions of white people who would trade places to be a black millionaire. If you honestly believe in Chris Rock's joke you are blind. Just go to a random mall and see the white kids who try to walk and dress like they're black and talk like they're black. Most of them would trade places with a poor black person, forget the wealth.

WTF? What does it mean to dress like you're Black or talk like you're Black?

[This is wrong.]

More: not all people of color have grown up in the hood or have been called racial slurs to their faces on a regular basis. A URM with the most cushy life has still been disadvantaged compared to a white guy.

Like Chris Rock said at one of his concerts: "Not one white dude in here would even trade places with ME...and I'm rich! That's how good it is to be white in America."

There are millions of white people who would trade places to be a black millionaire. If you honestly believe in Chris Rock's joke you are blind. Just go to a random mall and see the white kids who try to walk and dress like they're black and talk like they're black. Most of them would trade places with a poor black person, forget the wealth.

WTF? What does it mean to dress like you're Black or talk like you're Black?

Whatever, Galt.  You totally dress and talk like you're Black.

[Susan B. Anthony]

I'm sure this will start a rant from someone, but whatever.

If someone can explain how the below situation is fair (without referencing slavery as none of us have been/owned slaves) in terms that I can understand and appreciate and I will forever favor AA.

Two students apply to the same law school. Both are male and around age 22. Both went to the same public high school and the same public college. They lived in the same upper middle class suburb throughout school. Both have fathers that are lawyers. Both of their mothers stayed at home when the boys were young. Both studied political science. One is white and one is black. The white student had a GPA of 3.66 and an LSAT of 162. The black student had a GPA of 3.30 and an LSAT of 159. Both chose not to work in undergrad or high school. Both belonged to the same pre-law society on campus and no other organizations. The black student was admitted to the school. The white student was not. How is this fair?

All else equal, the black student with lower numbers gets in over the white student with higher numbers. This is exaggerated, of course, but similar to something that happened to a white guy I know a few years back.

Here are a variety of explanations from which you can choose. Some of them influence/work in tandem with others:

1. Stereotype threat suggests that African-American students are less likely to perform to their potential on the LSAT. For extensive discussion of the merits of this argument as related to affirmative action, see here.

2. White privilege suggests that white individuals enjoy a variety of benefits and privileges that similarly situated minority individuals do not receive. This suggests that the white and black students noted in the hypothetical above are unlikely to have the same lived experience. In addition, one of the ways to break down white privilege is to normalize minority representation in respected professions/positions of power.

3. Low minority representation in the legal profession is a self-perpetuating cycle. Young minority men and women are less likely to see people like them in the profession, less likely to have mentors or people encouraging them to enter the profession, and are therefore less likely to enter the profession (or, if they do enter the profession, less likely to do it with the information/help to do so successfully). Encouraging minority enrollment in law schools (and, after law school, minority employment in respected positions) helps break down this cycle.

4. Low minority enrollment in law schools results in a decreased variety of experience, thought and opinion in the classroom/student body, which consequentially results in decreased quality of the educational experience.

We will always be able to find individuals for whom the application of a policy aimed at solving systemic, macro level problems seems unfair. That's...just how things work. Welcome to life: it's unfair here. The real question is, though, whether the uniform application of imperfect indicators at the micro level, so that we can claim some arguable level of quantitative fairness, is more important than taking steps to alleviate systemic issues in law schools and general society. If you don't agree that low minority representation, white privilege, etc., exist/are systemic issues that we should be trying to eradicate, then you won't ever agree that AA is a reasonable policy.

[Matthies]

I'm sure this will start a rant from someone, but whatever.

If someone can explain how the below situation is fair (without referencing slavery as none of us have been/owned slaves) in terms that I can understand and appreciate and I will forever favor AA.

Two students apply to the same law school. Both are male and around age 22. Both went to the same public high school and the same public college. They lived in the same upper middle class suburb throughout school. Both have fathers that are lawyers. Both of their mothers stayed at home when the boys were young. Both studied political science. One is white and one is black. The white student had a GPA of 3.66 and an LSAT of 162. The black student had a GPA of 3.30 and an LSAT of 159. Both chose not to work in undergrad or high school. Both belonged to the same pre-law society on campus and no other organizations. The black student was admitted to the school. The white student was not. How is this fair?

Becuase at the school the black kid got into there will be about 250 carbon copies of the white kid in his class, 1 rich black kid, 3-4 other not rich black kids and a few token mexicans and indians thrown in. Repeate at every law school other than the handful of traditinallly balck ones, and you get the picture. There are a alot of white rich kids applying to law schools, I have yet to meet the mythical Cosby family balck guy. Maybe they are out there, but I know allot of the 900 people at my school, but I can count all the balck ones just using the digets on my feet and hands.

[Kirk Lazarus]

More: not all people of color have grown up in the hood or have been called racial slurs to their faces on a regular basis. A URM with the most cushy life has still been disadvantaged compared to a white guy.

Like Chris Rock said at one of his concerts: "Not one white dude in here would even trade places with ME...and I'm rich! That's how good it is to be white in America."

There are millions of white people who would trade places to be a black millionaire. If you honestly believe in Chris Rock's joke you are blind. Just go to a random mall and see the white kids who try to walk and dress like they're black and talk like they're black. Most of them would trade places with a poor black person, forget the wealth.

WTF? What does it mean to dress like you're Black or talk like you're Black?

Whatever, Galt.  You totally dress and talk like you're Black.

hahah, gotme.

[Kirk Lazarus]

More: not all people of color have grown up in the hood or have been called racial slurs to their faces on a regular basis. A URM with the most cushy life has still been disadvantaged compared to a white guy.

Like Chris Rock said at one of his concerts: "Not one white dude in here would even trade places with ME...and I'm rich! That's how good it is to be white in America."

There are millions of white people who would trade places to be a black millionaire. If you honestly believe in Chris Rock's joke you are blind. Just go to a random mall and see the white kids who try to walk and dress like they're black and talk like they're black. Most of them would trade places with a poor black person, forget the wealth.

WTF? What does it mean to dress like you're Black or talk like you're Black?

Whatever, Galt.  You totally dress and talk like you're Black.

hahaha, gotme

[SweetAsCandy]

Race-Blind System Hypothetical:

Yale Law has a 7% acceptance rate.

Ok, let's keep it simple. Let's say you have 100 applicants to Yale Law. Obviously, there can only be 7 admits.

Let's say that only 49 applicants have a GPA/LSAT range that Yale would accept. And an additional applicant is close numerically, but not quite at par, but he has parents who donate big money to yale.

so you're looking at an applicant pool of 50 that has to be trimmed to 7.

Also assume that 47 of those qualified applicants are white and 3 are Black.

Now stop the hypothetical right there and assume that all 50 applicants are roughly equal in their numerical scores, eductional backgrounds, and work experience (except for the 1 legacy who is not black).

What are the odds that any of the three black qualified applicants gets admitted in this hypothetical under a race-blind system?

After you answer this question, i'll ask another.


 

haha...you get two thumbs up from me on this one.  :-)

[SweetAsCandy]

Becuase at the school the black kid got into there will be about 250 carbon copies of the white kid in his class, 1 rich black kid, 3-4 other not rich black kids and a few token mexicans and indians thrown in. Repeate at every law school other than the handful of traditinallly balck ones, and you get the picture. There are a alot of white rich kids applying to law schools, I have yet to meet the mythical Cosby family balck guy. Maybe they are out there, but I know allot of the 900 people at my school, but I can count all the balck ones just using the digets on my feet and hands.

two thumbs up from me on this one as well.  :-)

[Ninja1]

I'm sure this will start a rant from someone, but whatever.

If someone can explain how the below situation is fair (without referencing slavery as none of us have been/owned slaves) in terms that I can understand and appreciate and I will forever favor AA.

Two students apply to the same law school. Both are male and around age 22. Both went to the same public high school and the same public college. They lived in the same upper middle class suburb throughout school. Both have fathers that are lawyers. Both of their mothers stayed at home when the boys were young. Both studied political science. One is white and one is black. The white student had a GPA of 3.66 and an LSAT of 162. The black student had a GPA of 3.30 and an LSAT of 159. Both chose not to work in undergrad or high school. Both belonged to the same pre-law society on campus and no other organizations. The black student was admitted to the school. The white student was not. How is this fair?

Becuase at the school the black kid got into there will be about 250 carbon copies of the white kid in his class, 1 rich black kid, 3-4 other not rich black kids and a few token mexicans and indians thrown in. Repeate at every law school other than the handful of traditinallly balck ones, and you get the picture. There are a alot of white rich kids applying to law schools, I have yet to meet the mythical Cosby family balck guy. Maybe they are out there, but I know allot of the 900 people at my school, but I can count all the balck ones just using the digets on my feet and hands.

And that matters... how?

I still fail to see how admitting unqualified/underqualified people in any way helps the legal profession. Great for giving people a shot, but give them a shot where they deserve to be. Someone with a GPA that you can earn by sleeping through UG and an LSAT several points lower has no business taking a seat from someone that actually worked in college and did well on their LSAT.

And the real kick in the balls is the black kid will probably get bank for being black. It's kind of disgusting listening to URMs talk about the scholarship offers they get based solely on being URMs.

[Kirk Lazarus]

My basic point is that in a lot of situations, AA doesn't do what it wants to do. If you let in an upper middle class black kid (or one like Carlton on Fresh Prince), how are you helping the underprivileged people of society?

Let's try this: a white kid and a black kid with the same numbers. Black kid is from an upper class family, white kid is poor. Is it still promoting diversity to let the black kid in over the white kid?

Also, just because I'm white doesn't mean that I should have to work three times as hard to get where I want to go. I don't mind helping people who genuinely try and just need a little boost, but the black kid that my first example was based on had a lower GPA/LSAT because he drank and partied all through college. He was hungover when he took the LSAT. The white kid only partied on the weekends and put a lot of effort into school and the LSAT. That's where the different numbers actually came from.

If you take the race box off the applications (because honestly if you don't check an answer, you're probably white), you can still explain any hardships you've been through in your personal statement. Couldn't they use other information to choose the people that bring diversity to the school? I just don't think that race is enough to prove diversity.

Let's use an example from college. Every organization on my campus got graded based on diversity. The Republican organization which allowed anyone to join, was rated low in diversity, but organizations that required members to be black or Indian rated high. That is my problem with diversity. It's only diverse if it includes a lot of URMs, even if they are all the same minority.

Are you serious? It promotes diversity because all the other kids in the class are likely to be white. If you took the race box off of applications, then you're going to make it MORE difficult for Blacks and other minorities to get in because their numbers in the applicant pool are so much smaller.