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Author Topic: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?  (Read 43894 times)

Kirk Lazarus

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Re: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2008, 12:57:39 PM »
I think Galt's point is that the class will be all white.

To answer Galt's question, though, the chances are the same as any group of 3 from the pool. That would be the point of race-blindness. It's not a relevant factor in picking.

Correct. The chances, under my hypo, of a black person getting selected initially are 3/50; while the chances of a white person getting selected are 47/50. That's a 6 percent likelihood versus a 94 percent likelihood. Since each selection is independent of the next, at least with respect to race, the odds that the next person selected would be 3/49 black and 46/49 white - (6.1% and 93.8 percent, respectively)

Although race blind in policy, under my hypo it virtually ensures an all white class. Is that the purpose of race blind? Answer this question and I'll ask another.

Also, remember the question posed in the thread is not the benefits of a race-blind system, but rather why qualified minorities might not want it.

Like I posted above, why should one of the URMs be the one to luck out and be selected?  What is so inherently bad about an all white class, if all of them deserve to be there and were selected on the basis of their qualifications?

I understand that diversity improves the educational setting, but how much more diverse is a rich URM from the burbs versus a white guy that grew up in the inner city and had to scrap for everything they have?  I think there are better ways to take into account diversity of opinion and thought than race. 

But if a URM writes a really bitchin diversity statement or PS about how growing up as a minority has influenced them and made them more prepared to contribute in a classroom setting, then I see no reason why that shouldn't be taken into account.  I just don't think race should automatically qualify someone as having diverse life experiences.


Right. And that's all fine. The point, though, is that in my hypo...it has nothing to do with the qualifications of the applicants. Simply because there are vast more whites in the applicant pool than Blacks, it makes the chances than a Black applicant is selecteed for admission exceedingly small. Thus, in order for a qualified Black applicant to have a reasonable shot to get into a particular school under a race-blind system, the Black applicant would have to post scores that would far exceed the median - simply to stand out. So in fact, a race-blind admissions system pretty much consolidates power among the majority group at elite colleges and universities. I'll leave others to debate the desirability of such a regime on a micro and macro level. But that's what it does.

And the reason I posted my inquiry to Lindbergh, not that he would be able to pick up on this, is that in my hypo all you have to do is replace Black with Asian and that's exactly what's happening to many qualified Asians today. They are being pushed out of schools that they're reasonably qualified to be in and they have to be much better than the median applicant in order to be able to secure a spot in a particular school.

Of course, every individual has an equal chance to be admitted under a race-blind system. So, again, I'm not saying whether it is bad or good. What I'm saying is that its pretty clear and intuitive why a qualified minority might not like race blind admissions.
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Elephant Lee

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Re: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2008, 09:39:54 PM »
Actually, I'm urm, and it doesn't bother me at all.  I sincerely doubt it bothers any qualified urms.

Just had to mock the other ridiculous, self-justifying urm poster with the dumb thread title.
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Re: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2008, 12:53:08 PM »
How about America gives back the land it took, pays for the labor it was unjustly enriched by, gets rid of legacy admits, criminalizes all intoxicants instead of just the ones minorities use, abolishes the distinction between white collar crime and other crime and then strictly prohibits racial profiling?  What is it about that that really bothers you?

1. Why don't you start with your first house?
2. Those labor thieves are dead. Last I checked I'm not liable for even a murder my father commits.
3. What? Crack vs. Alcohol? Unsure what you mean here.
4. White collar crime is distinguished because it generally doesn't deal with direct physical attacks on people. Sorry mate, there's a huge difference between sticking a gun in my face to take my money and stealing from my bank account. What you ask? The weapon.
5. As for racial profiling, yes I agree it should not happen. It does, if it happens to you and you suffered some tangible damage - lost wages, confinement, etc., then find a lawyer. Actually, I am a lawyer, send me a pm and we'll sue or I'll find you a lawyer who will.
1. First house?
2. Yeah, but you wouldnt be able to keep any of the proceeds of your father's theft or murder.
3. Crack, marijuana v. alcohol and cigarettes
4. Maybe there is a huge difference, but why should someone who embezzles vast amount of money go to a minimum security prison where someone who sells drugs gets mixed in with the rapists and murderers? 
5. It is a fact that african americans are more likely to get pulled over merely because they're black - it's called DWB

1. Yes, return it to Native Americans. It's on their land.
2. Depends - theft has a statute of limitations and 1/2 my ancestors immigrated well after 1870.
3. Last I checked both colors use all four. But frankly, I believe they all should be illegal.
4. Drug dealers often commit violent crime too...embezzlers don't
5. True enough, problem is that to be worth a civil lawsuit, there must be enough damages to pay an attorney fee...now a class action...hmmmm. Of course, there's that darn Tort Immunity the Gov. has for most actions.
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Pattycake

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Re: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2008, 01:18:30 AM »
School admission MUST be based on academic excellence, not one's skin color. If we all have the same brain, why shouldn't all of us perform well in school? The implications of AA are much greater than some think. Minorities should be ashamed to expect to get by because they are under-represented, instead strive for excellence so you can COMPETE with your white counterparts. Why isn't there AA for white in NFL or NBA recruitment? By the way, I'm black. 

Kirk Lazarus

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Re: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2008, 11:45:53 AM »
School admission MUST be based on academic excellence, not one's skin color. If we all have the same brain, why shouldn't all of us perform well in school? The implications of AA are much greater than some think. Minorities should be ashamed to expect to get by because they are under-represented, instead strive for excellence so you can COMPETE with your white counterparts. Why isn't there AA for white in NFL or NBA recruitment? By the way, I'm black. 


LOL!

Yeah because nutrition, poverty, racism, sexism, crappy schools, lack of resources, violence all have nothing to do with performance.



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kman999

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Re: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2008, 12:22:28 PM »
Right. And that's all fine. The point, though, is that in my hypo...it has nothing to do with the qualifications of the applicants. Simply because there are vast more whites in the applicant pool than Blacks, it makes the chances than a Black applicant is selecteed for admission exceedingly small.


OK, your point is well taken, but just because their is small chance that a black applicant will be chosen, it does not illustrate the system's flaws.  It merely represents the fact that there are more white applicants to the school and the school will probably be represented as such(under a race-blind system)...We also must take into account that 40 whites will be denied admission while only three blacks will be denied admission.

Now I understand the point revolves around deciding if a minority applicant deserves a boost because of the inhibiting environment he/she grew up in....But the fact remains that the number of minority applicants will be smaller no matter the circumstances, and thus majority acceptances higher. 

In the end I believe there is nothing wrong with AA, but it must be used with more discretion.  It only takes a bit more work to determing if a minority truly suffered from a lack of resources, poor school districts, etc.....or if a applicant is simply using his race to garner an acceptance. 

Miss P

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Re: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2008, 12:34:46 PM »
In the end I believe there is nothing wrong with AA, but it must be used with more discretion.  It only takes a bit more work to determing if a minority truly suffered from a lack of resources, poor school districts, etc.....or if a applicant is simply using his race to garner an acceptance. 

Where is the evidence that admissions committees frequently get this wrong?  I do not accept the proposition that only educational and other deprivation justify affirmative action (there are multiple forms of disadvantage, not all of which can be mapped in class terms), but law school applications do contain rich data about students -- from high school class rank to diversity essays to work history -- and I imagine racial identification is but one factor among these others that schools consider when selecting students.
That's cool how you referenced a case.

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Pattycake

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Re: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2008, 12:59:10 PM »
School admission MUST be based on academic excellence, not one's skin color. If we all have the same brain, why shouldn't all of us perform well in school? The implications of AA are much greater than some think. Minorities should be ashamed to expect to get by because they are under-represented, instead strive for excellence so you can COMPETE with your white counterparts. Why isn't there AA for white in NFL or NBA recruitment? By the way, I'm black. 


LOL!

Yeah because nutrition, poverty, racism, sexism, crappy schools, lack of resources, violence all have nothing to do with performance.





To some this might be a revelation: other  races are poor, malnourished, sexually discriminated against, go to "crappy schools," "lack resources," and live in violent neighborhoods too. These are all socio-economic issues, not racial issues. A  white and black kid from inner city Detroit or Baltimore, Maryland are equally disadvantaged. If socio-economic factors hinder performance, then let us make AA for all races; no wonder whites and Asian students are beginning to check "black" in their applications. Go figure! By the way, I'm black.

snarkygirl

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Re: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2008, 01:06:10 PM »
LOL at "by the way, i'm black" being the last line of the pp's two posts.

by the way, i'm white.

Miss P

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Re: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2008, 02:12:07 PM »
To some this might be a revelation: other  races are poor, malnourished, sexually discriminated against, go to "crappy schools," "lack resources," and live in violent neighborhoods too. These are all socio-economic issues, not racial issues. A  white and black kid from inner city Detroit or Baltimore, Maryland are equally disadvantaged. If socio-economic factors hinder performance, then let us make AA for all races; no wonder whites and Asian students are beginning to check "black" in their applications. Go figure! By the way, I'm black.

Again, I don't know that there's any indication, aside from the paucity of representation among poor people generally, that law schools fail to take socioeconomic status into account when evaluating applications.  They certainly do ask a lot of questions that bear on applicants' class backgrounds.  Nonetheless, there are some forms of disadvantage that are specific to racial minorities.  I don't understand your and others' resistance to including race as one factor.
That's cool how you referenced a case.

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I'm so far from the end of my tether right now that I reckon I could knit myself some socks with the slack.