Law School Discussion

Nine Years of Discussion
;

Author Topic: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?  (Read 44249 times)

CTL

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 3553
    • View Profile
Re: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?
« Reply #90 on: March 26, 2009, 10:59:45 AM »
My basic point is that in a lot of situations, AA doesn't do what it wants to do. If you let in an upper middle class black kid (or one like Carlton on Fresh Prince), how are you helping the underprivileged people of society?

Let's try this: a white kid and a black kid with the same numbers. Black kid is from an upper class family, white kid is poor. Is it still promoting diversity to let the black kid in over the white kid?

Also, just because I'm white doesn't mean that I should have to work three times as hard to get where I want to go. I don't mind helping people who genuinely try and just need a little boost, but the black kid that my first example was based on had a lower GPA/LSAT because he drank and partied all through college. He was hungover when he took the LSAT. The white kid only partied on the weekends and put a lot of effort into school and the LSAT. That's where the different numbers actually came from.

If you take the race box off the applications (because honestly if you don't check an answer, you're probably white), you can still explain any hardships you've been through in your personal statement. Couldn't they use other information to choose the people that bring diversity to the school? I just don't think that race is enough to prove diversity.

Let's use an example from college. Every organization on my campus got graded based on diversity. The Republican organization which allowed anyone to join, was rated low in diversity, but organizations that required members to be black or Indian rated high. That is my problem with diversity. It's only diverse if it includes a lot of URMs, even if they are all the same minority.

Did you even read my post?

Why bother?  It's so much easier to make generalizations based on a single example.
If looks could kill, you would be an uzi.

Susan B. Anthony

  • LSD Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 6571
    • View Profile
Re: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?
« Reply #91 on: March 26, 2009, 11:09:11 AM »


Why bother?  It's so much easier to make generalizations based on a single example.

You're right. My bad.

Matthies

  • LSD Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 5988
    • View Profile
    • Tell me where you are going to school and you get a cat!
Re: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?
« Reply #92 on: March 26, 2009, 11:45:30 AM »
AA is a strange beast.  When my ex (who happens to be Hispanic) was applying to grad school, I really tried to convince her to take advantage of any advantages that might come from checking the hispanic box on the applications.  She wouldn't have it.  It offended her that the schools even asked. 

My argument was basically, if schools want to discriminate, and it can only be positive, why not let them?  You're not lying or gaming - if anything, they are. 

She didn't want to always feel as though she was only good-enough 'for a latina'.  I totally understand where she's coming from.  The spectre of wondering WHY she got in would always have haunted her.  She picked the 'no comment' box instead. 

I guess to each his/her own, but I thought it was an interesting perspective.


My real concern with AA is when does it end? Theoretically, if we continue race-based admission, eventually all of these traditionally white fields will be full of URMs. Do we stop then? If the URMs start dominating the field, do we then help white people? The guidelines just aren't set well. Is there a point when this won't be necessary and how do we decide when that moment is?

I think we stop when I go to class look around at the 100 faces in the room and not see 95% are white, but when I go the cafeteria at school or see someone cleaning the law school, or shoveling the snow, or polishing the floors 100% of them are non white.

If white people are the majority should not they also be represented in the lower class jobs at the law school? if minorities make up 30% of the population shouldnít there be more than just five in my class of 100 people (Iím not saying it should be 1 to 1, but it should be closer than 5 out of 100 and 100 percent minority on the cleaning staff).

I think when we get to a more equalized percentage of the population being represented in law school then it can stop. Women make up about 50% of law school classes, just 35 years ago some schools would not even admit them. They donít get admissions help anymore because they have reached parity (they are 50% of the US population), we have not reached parity or anything even close to that for minorities.
*In clinical studies, Matthies was well tolerated, but women who are pregnant, nursing or might become pregnant should not take or handle Matthies due to a rare, but serious side effect called him having to make child support payments.

CTL

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 3553
    • View Profile
Re: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?
« Reply #93 on: March 26, 2009, 11:48:45 AM »
AA is a strange beast.  When my ex (who happens to be Hispanic) was applying to grad school, I really tried to convince her to take advantage of any advantages that might come from checking the hispanic box on the applications.  She wouldn't have it.  It offended her that the schools even asked. 

My argument was basically, if schools want to discriminate, and it can only be positive, why not let them?  You're not lying or gaming - if anything, they are. 

She didn't want to always feel as though she was only good-enough 'for a latina'.  I totally understand where she's coming from.  The spectre of wondering WHY she got in would always have haunted her.  She picked the 'no comment' box instead. 

I guess to each his/her own, but I thought it was an interesting perspective.


My real concern with AA is when does it end? Theoretically, if we continue race-based admission, eventually all of these traditionally white fields will be full of URMs. Do we stop then? If the URMs start dominating the field, do we then help white people? The guidelines just aren't set well. Is there a point when this won't be necessary and how do we decide when that moment is?

I think we stop when I go to class look around at the 100 faces in the room and not see 95% are white, but when I go the cafeteria at school or see someone cleaning the law school, or shoveling the snow, or polishing the floors 100% of them are non white.

If white people are the majority should not they also be represented in the lower class jobs at the law school? if minorities make up 30% of the population shouldn’t there be more than just five in my class of 100 people (I’m not saying it should be 1 to 1, but it should be closer than 5 out of 100 and 100 percent minority on the cleaning staff).

I think when we get to a more equalized percentage of the population being represented in law school then it can stop. Women make up about 50% of law school classes, just 30 years ago some schools would not even admit them. They don’t get admissions help anymore because they have reached parity (they are 50% of the US population), we have not reached parity or anything even close to that for minorities.


Amen!  What, do people think people of color just LIKE low-wage, low upward-mobility jobs?  Refer to 30 Rock episode where Tracy Jordan and Jack are coaching a little league team from 'knuckle beach':

child: (upon entering VP's office) Wow!  When I grow up, I want to clean an office like this!
If looks could kill, you would be an uzi.

SweetAsCandy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44
    • View Profile
Re: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?
« Reply #94 on: March 26, 2009, 11:51:13 AM »



My other question is how do we make this society stop being racist, stop seeing people based on their skin color, if we put so much value into it for admissions/employment?


Oh goodness, there are so many people in law school that have only ever associated with their own race/culture and believe in stereotypes about minorities, mainly because they've never associated with minorities long enough to know better.  If AA puts an underprivileged minority into the same law school as some of these people, it *might* help to end racism among these sorts of people.  Once they start to associate with minorities that they would've never had the opportunity to associate with before, their racist, preconceived notions might start to change.  They'll realize that, "Wow, this black kid, or this Hispanic kid, is not so bad after all...he/she is nothing like what I thought all blacks/Hispanics were like."  ...just maybe.

Well behaved women rarely make history.

SweetAsCandy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44
    • View Profile
Re: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?
« Reply #95 on: March 26, 2009, 11:55:50 AM »

 If you don't agree that low minority representation, white privilege, etc., exist/are systemic issues that we should be trying to eradicate, then you won't ever agree that AA is a reasonable policy.

Good point.
Well behaved women rarely make history.

Susan B. Anthony

  • LSD Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 6571
    • View Profile
Re: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?
« Reply #96 on: March 26, 2009, 11:57:42 AM »


I actually did read your post. You made some good points, I appreciate it.

If I said something that went against them illogically, I apologize.

My honest opinion is that AA causes more problems between races as whites resent URMs for getting a leg up and URMs resent whites for being upset by this. That's what I was trying to show with those examples, which obviously are not the norm. You don't have to agree with me. That's fine.

I'm going to shut up now, because I'm obviously outnumbered on this thread, which is cool. We all have a right to believe what we want.

Well that's interesting, because you paraded out the exact same kind of example without addressing any of the points I made, or any of the points that other people have been making.

So long as people continue to refuse to acknowledge the vast inequalities perpetuated by our society, some people will resent that black kid who got into law school, who got a good job, who became President - but ignorant resentment is no reason to stop making an effort to eradicate those inequalities.

This is wrong.

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1453
  • Dear LawDog3...
    • View Profile
Re: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?
« Reply #97 on: March 26, 2009, 12:42:04 PM »
My basic point is that in a lot of situations, AA doesn't do what it wants to do. If you let in an upper middle class black kid (or one like Carlton on Fresh Prince), how are you helping the underprivileged people of society?

Let's try this: a white kid and a black kid with the same numbers. Black kid is from an upper class family, white kid is poor. Is it still promoting diversity to let the black kid in over the white kid?

Also, just because I'm white doesn't mean that I should have to work three times as hard to get where I want to go. I don't mind helping people who genuinely try and just need a little boost, but the black kid that my first example was based on had a lower GPA/LSAT because he drank and partied all through college. He was hungover when he took the LSAT. The white kid only partied on the weekends and put a lot of effort into school and the LSAT. That's where the different numbers actually came from.

If you take the race box off the applications (because honestly if you don't check an answer, you're probably white), you can still explain any hardships you've been through in your personal statement. Couldn't they use other information to choose the people that bring diversity to the school? I just don't think that race is enough to prove diversity.

Let's use an example from college. Every organization on my campus got graded based on diversity. The Republican organization which allowed anyone to join, was rated low in diversity, but organizations that required members to be black or Indian rated high. That is my problem with diversity. It's only diverse if it includes a lot of URMs, even if they are all the same minority.

Did you even read my post?

I actually did read your post. You made some good points, I appreciate it.

If I said something that went against them illogically, I apologize.

My honest opinion is that AA causes more problems between races as whites resent URMs for getting a leg up and URMs resent whites for being upset by this. That's what I was trying to show with those examples, which obviously are not the norm. You don't have to agree with me. That's fine.

I'm going to shut up now, because I'm obviously outnumbered on this thread, which is cool. We all have a right to believe what we want.

1.  You didn't lose the argument because you're outnumbered.  You lost the argument because you're wrong.  We get the hint, feminine hygiene product.
2.  That said, you DO have the right to believe what you want.  Even if you're wrong.  Which you are.
3.  I am white.  I don't resent URMs.
4.  Most of my friends are white.  They don't resent URMs.
5.  The rest of my friends are URMs.  They don't resent whites for being upset about this (those whites that are upset about this, of course -- as I pointed out, that's not nearly as large a number as you'd like to believe).  A few of them do resent whites for being so blatantly ignorant of why other URMs might resent them for being upset about this.
I do not like hats.
I do not like them on bats.
I would not like them near cats.
I would not like them made out of mats.

This is wrong.

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1453
  • Dear LawDog3...
    • View Profile
Re: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?
« Reply #98 on: March 26, 2009, 12:44:17 PM »
My basic point is that in a lot of situations, AA doesn't do what it wants to do. If you let in an upper middle class black kid (or one like Carlton on Fresh Prince), how are you helping the underprivileged people of society?

Let's try this: a white kid and a black kid with the same numbers. Black kid is from an upper class family, white kid is poor. Is it still promoting diversity to let the black kid in over the white kid?


God this mythical rich black kid and all to numerous poverty stricken white kid law school applicant comparison drive me nuts

Your poor if:

Your single parent and four siblings share a 2 bed room one bath apartment

The five of you share a 15 year old car with no A/C and roll down windows

Your ďhealth insuranceĒ is Medicare and the emergency room

When you want to call your girl friend you have to walk down to 7-11 and use the pay phone

Itís a monthly struggle for your parents to pay the heat/rent/food without giving up on something else

One or more of your family members could not make it to graduation because they had to work, and they only get paid for the hours they work

Your family save up for a month to take you out to Dinner at Sizzler for your HS graduation

You work two jobs and take student loans for school just so you can help your family out with expenses

To post on LSD you have to take a city bus to the public library where you wait in line to get on one of the computer terminals for an hour block

If this is your life, black, white or purple, yea, dude youíre poor, and you should get a leg up in admissions.

Youíre not poor if:

You and your sister had to share the same bathroom growing up

Your moms car is four years old, but your dads truck is only three, and your car is about seven

You had to settle for an 8gig Nano over the 16g one you really wanted.

Your Motorola RAZOR is not cool any more because everyone else has got one

Your family has more than one TV

You have extended digital cable, but canít afford the movie channels

Your netfilx program only allows you to get one movie at a time

Your two year old Macbook works fine, but you donít think its fair other people can afford MacBook Pros

Your worked during UG, but most of the money you made went to buying $100 jeans, going to concerts, paying for your own gas, getting DVDs and drinking premium beer at bars

Your DVD player does not upscale to 1080i

Your parents make more than $36,000 a year combined

Your have been to the dentist, and eye doctor or some specialist in the last 12 months and not had to pay full price or make  an 18 month payment plan to do it.

This is not poor. This is the average, non minority, working/middle class American family. There are a hell of a lot of you applying to law schools.

Now, are there white people who are really poor, yes, but there are a lot more minorities who fit the poor description than white applicants. Stop with this mythical poor white kid, heís a s rare as Michael Jordonís son applying to Yale. The fact of the matter is the vast majority of people applying to law schools are white, middle class kids who have no suffered extended financial hardships or racism, they may not be rich, but they are not poor either. Should you have to work 3 times a s ahrder to get in, yea, becuase theye are 100x as many of you applying to law school and to pick from than minorities.

This entire arguemnt is never about fairness, its allways really about the fact that some folks don't like others getting an any advatage over them but are more than willing to give themslves an advatage oversome else if it works out best for them (i.e. OMGZ no fairs! I'm the poor white kid who the rich black kid is taking my spot! Balck people should not be given prefrence but the poors like me should!)



I would just like to point out that Matthies is always wrong about everything, and that I really love Sizzler.

Now quit being wrong, Matthies!!!

(But don't stop talking about Sizzler.)
I do not like hats.
I do not like them on bats.
I would not like them near cats.
I would not like them made out of mats.

Susan B. Anthony

  • LSD Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 6571
    • View Profile
Re: Be honest URMs: why does race-blind admissions really bother you?
« Reply #99 on: March 26, 2009, 01:00:56 PM »
I really love Sizzler.

I resent you for this. The passion with which I hate Sizzler is immeasurable.

I just wanted to thank Matthies for the response, because it is actually the first time in my life I've had someone answer that question with anything other than "Never." Maybe I've talked to the wrong sorts of people about AA in the past...

This is evidently the case. The whole point of AA is that the beneficiaries belong to groups that are underrepresented.