Law School Discussion

Fifth Tier Toilet

Matthies

  • ****
  • 3678
    • View Profile
    • Tell me where you are going to school and you get a cat!
Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2008, 12:25:31 PM »
Quote

You are one of the few posters on this site who seems like he has his SH-T together and doesn't discourage students from non T14. You are honest but not discouraging. It is a breath of fresh air.
 


However, I do argue that law schools are being overbuilt to the detriment of the profession. The rate of law school openings simply is not tracking the growth of the industry as a whole. The end result is more and more students are going to get a raw deal out of law school as the supply of new lawyers continues to increase relative to demand. Collective gumption is not going to change that.

I agree with you completely on the effect, just not the cause, at least as how I see it. Again, to me, I see this not as a supply issue (too many schools) but as a demand issue (too many wanna be lawyers).  All the law schools, even the lowest ranked of them have more applicants than the can accept. This means there is more demand than supply. Why? As I have said before I think itís a combination of simple entrance requirements (no particular major), ever increasing numbers of people going to college/graduate school than ever before, a belief that lawyers make more money than most other professions (I think this is a mistaken belief as the Bureau of Labor Statistics pegs the median salary of all lawyers at like $92k).

The argument that we should limit the number of schools so as to limit the number of lawyers seems to me has at its base the desired result of increasing lawyer pay by limiting competition. I feel this is not the role of schools, schools are there to educated not control the market. The problem is that we have too many people who want to be lawyers because, primarily, they want to make lot of money. Think about this; what if tomorrow big law salaries went to $50k, partners to 100k, and the tuition at all schools reduced to the same percentage of that income as it is today. What would happen to demand? It would drop off substantially, lots of schools would close. I think the majority of people going to law school would be doing it because they wanted to be lawyers, not because they thought being a lawyer was a quick path to riches.

My view is we have an oversupply of lawyers, thus all lawyers making less money, precisely because we have too many people entering the profession because they want a chance at the top salaries. We publish top salaries only, we have easy access to info on what the richest lawyers make, and we have people applying to law schools who have never spoken to a real working lawyer to see what its really like for the majority of them. The competition at the top schools is driven not because they produce better lawyers but because they produce lawyers with best chances at getting top dollar.

Of course, its not a popular argument, none of us, including me want to admit to being part of the problem, its easier to blame the schools and the ABA then admit we are as much at fault as everyone else like us who wants to get rich being a lawyer (Close all these schools below me so I can get higher paying jobs with less competition!).

But I think even if you closed all the schools but the top 14, this still would not increase overall salaries for everyone as there are not enough extremely high paying jobs out there, and there is a need and demand for lower paying PI jobs. The system now produces too many lawyers yes, but not too many lawyers for the demand for legal services, just too many lawyers for every wanna be to be one of the few lucky really high paid ones.  Again I say that is not the fault of the T4 school, their job is to educate not control the market, but the fault of too many wanna be lawyers having unrealistic goals and too many people all trying for the few highest paying jobs. I think if you want to be lawyer there is plenty of work out there, if you want to be the highest paid lawyer there is plenty of competition out there.

Anyway this is just how I view the issue, donít mean it right, donít mean your wrong, donít mean it the only way to see it, just a differing view that at least makes sense in my world.

nealric

  • ****
  • 2248
  • a.k.a. Miguel Sanchez
    • View Profile
Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2008, 02:13:11 PM »
^Very good post^

Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2008, 02:38:38 PM »
Up symbols don't work very well when you're the first poster on a new page.

Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2008, 05:17:56 PM »
Law schools should be like Med Schools/Business schools. Capped at a certain point.

Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2008, 08:09:49 PM »
Law schools should be like Med Schools/Business schools. Capped at a certain point.

There are restrictions on opening Business Schools?  I've kind of thought that MBA programs were popping up all over the place in the last few years.  Not being argumentative, I just didn't realize there was any real regulatory regime to business schools.

baileypicks24

  • ****
  • 218
  • You have food, a roof, and security. Shut up.
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2008, 08:30:51 AM »
Law schools should be like Med Schools/Business schools. Capped at a certain point.

Bingo. I think it's silly to blame the demand side (the students). It's silly to suggest that "too many people want to be lawyers" is the problem. Sure, everyone wants to go to law school nowadays, and with the few requirements, prerequisites, and little pre-qualification needed to go to law school...what do ya know, everyone's applying to law school. But guess what? Everyone wants to be a doctor, too. I bet many people on this board were pre-med, once upon a time. There are tons of people out there who dream about becoming a doctor (myself included). But guess what? You have to take some pre-med courses. You have to have a solid GPA, and you have to do above-average on the MCATs. In other words, there are more pre-qualification requirements for you to become a doctor. So even though everyone dreams about becoming a doctor, the entry requirements to enter this profession are waaaay higher than the requirements to go to law school. So don't blame the students and their dreams. They aren't the problem. The problem is the law schools that are popping up everywhere, and are allowing people with lower GPAs and lower LSATs to enter the legal profession. And man, what do ya know, there are a bunch of under qualified people entering law school, many of whom end up being unhappy, making measly salaries, and $100k+ in debt. The medical profession filters out these individuals with stricter pre-qualification entry requirements. No matter how much you dreamed of becoming a doctor, if you weren't good enough, and you won't become a doctor. The bar is lower in the legal profession. And that, I believe, is part of the problem.

The Knight

  • ***
  • 93
  • Not URM, just dark. I know...it's weak.
    • View Profile
Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #46 on: July 13, 2008, 09:48:31 AM »
Law schools should be like Med Schools/Business schools. Capped at a certain point.

Bingo. I think it's silly to blame the demand side (the students). It's silly to suggest that "too many people want to be lawyers" is the problem. Sure, everyone wants to go to law school nowadays, and with the few requirements, prerequisites, and little pre-qualification needed to go to law school...what do ya know, everyone's applying to law school. But guess what? Everyone wants to be a doctor, too. I bet many people on this board were pre-med, once upon a time. There are tons of people out there who dream about becoming a doctor (myself included). But guess what? You have to take some pre-med courses. You have to have a solid GPA, and you have to do above-average on the MCATs. In other words, there are more pre-qualification requirements for you to become a doctor. So even though everyone dreams about becoming a doctor, the entry requirements to enter this profession are waaaay higher than the requirements to go to law school. So don't blame the students and their dreams. They aren't the problem. The problem is the law schools that are popping up everywhere, and are allowing people with lower GPAs and lower LSATs to enter the legal profession. And man, what do ya know, there are a bunch of under qualified people entering law school, many of whom end up being unhappy, making measly salaries, and $100k+ in debt. The medical profession filters out these individuals with stricter pre-qualification entry requirements. No matter how much you dreamed of becoming a doctor, if you weren't good enough, and you won't become a doctor. The bar is lower in the legal profession. And that, I believe, is part of the problem.

This isn't true.

Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #47 on: July 13, 2008, 11:08:42 AM »
Bailey, aren't you going to the University of Akron, with your other options being T3's with no scholarship money?

Under your own criteria, should you be precluded from going to law school?  Hey, I took a scholarship at a T4, so under my view, you're as ready for law school as I was.  It just seems ironic that you're criticizing sub-par performance leading to sub-par schools when by a lot of people's standards... you're in that exact category.  You seem to be arguing against the very same schools that let you in.

Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2008, 11:36:38 AM »
I don't see how the school he attends would weaken his argument. 

Example:

Policeman: I think policemen give out too many speeding tickets

Answer: But you are a policeman who gives out too many tickets.  How can you argue that position? 

-----------------

Regarding the number of schools:

Medical Schools: expensive to start, expensive to run, high tution = not as much money for university = less medical schools.

Law Schools: not as expensive to start, not as expensive to run, high tution = more money for university = more law schools.

This is my hypothesis. 





Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2008, 12:01:52 PM »
I don't see how the school he attends would weaken his argument.

I don't think it does weaken his argument.  I think it's just ironic.  Bailey is part of the problem he describes.

Premise #1: T3/T4s let in under-qualified students.
Premise #2: This is bad, and should not happen.
Premise #4: I myself go to a T3, and my other options were T3s
Conclusion: My admittance is an abomination before the T14 gods.