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Fifth Tier Toilet

ouffha

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Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2008, 12:06:06 PM »
[ How can you expect to adocate for someone else, if you can't even advocate for you?

TITCRQ.

(this is the credited rhetorical question)

Ha ha ha ha! That's true.

nealric

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Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2008, 04:35:52 PM »
Quote
Don't go to school in DC then. Tongue There are places where there are enough jobs for the graduates. Seriously I don't know anyone of my friends from my school w/o a job, gratned we are a mid sized market with two schools (one having a very small class) and I doubt this is the case in NYC or Chicago, but there are places where law stundents don't out number jobs. Maybe they are not glamorius cities or the highest paying markets but there are places without a glut of unemployeed law grads.

I'm putting this in context of the "5th tier" schools discussed in this thread. I have to believe if Regis started a law school in Denver there would be a few grads who would have employment problems.

Matthies

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Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2008, 05:07:25 PM »
Quote
Don't go to school in DC then. Tongue There are places where there are enough jobs for the graduates. Seriously I don't know anyone of my friends from my school w/o a job, gratned we are a mid sized market with two schools (one having a very small class) and I doubt this is the case in NYC or Chicago, but there are places where law stundents don't out number jobs. Maybe they are not glamorius cities or the highest paying markets but there are places without a glut of unemployeed law grads.

I'm putting this in context of the "5th tier" schools discussed in this thread. I have to believe if Regis started a law school in Denver there would be a few grads who would have employment problems.

Until it got established, but the city could not likely support three schools. The new schools have been smart in this at least, opening a new school in Phoenix w/ an evening program was a smart move. I don't care where you go or what rank your school is there is always going to be people who have a hard time finding work. Harder at lower ranked schools for sure, but some people just suck at finiding/keeping work. Not everyone who goes to law school is going to make a good lawyer, but out of every school, even the crappeist ones there are going to be sucesses, even at the best schools failures, blame it on the school if you want to, but some people just suck at life.

Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2008, 06:35:08 PM »
Matthies, you apparently don't understand how a message board works.

In every post I read of yours, you make rational sense, and advocate for personal responsibility, and take things as case by case, and tend to view things as mutable and flexible and dependent on individual circumstances.

That's now how message boards work.  Here's the deal.  Pick an ideology and stick with it.  Here are a few popular ones.  t14 or die.  biglaw or die.  all top schools grads make billions.  all TTTXMNLOP grads eat ramen.

You're missing the picture here man.  Stop making sense, and start making blanket generalizations, ok?

Glad we had this talk.

The Knight

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Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2008, 07:23:19 PM »
Matthies, you apparently don't understand how a message board works.

In every post I read of yours, you make rational sense, and advocate for personal responsibility, and take things as case by case, and tend to view things as mutable and flexible and dependent on individual circumstances.

That's now how message boards work.  Here's the deal.  Pick an ideology and stick with it.  Here are a few popular ones.  t14 or die.  biglaw or die.  all top schools grads make billions.  all TTTXMNLOP grads eat ramen.

You're missing the picture here man.  Stop making sense, and start making blanket generalizations, ok?

Glad we had this talk.

I also tire of Matthies' constant objectivity and clever/interesting/knowledgeable posts.  I am currently considering a halt to my cyber-stalking of Matthies in protest.  I would feel much better if we could at least get an "OMG ONOEZskyisfalling-omnomnomnom.com" or two out of Matthies.  Otherwise the only logical choice left would be to continue to submit to his horrible litany of well though-out responses.

Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2008, 07:26:40 PM »
Otherwise the only logical choice left would be to continue to submit to his horrible litany of well though-out responses.


The tyranny of reason no doubt.

vap

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Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2008, 10:10:12 PM »
Matthies, you apparently don't understand how a message board works.

In every post I read of yours, you make rational sense, and advocate for personal responsibility, and take things as case by case, and tend to view things as mutable and flexible and dependent on individual circumstances.

That's now how message boards work.  Here's the deal.  Pick an ideology and stick with it.  Here are a few popular ones.  t14 or die.  biglaw or die.  all top schools grads make billions.  all TTTXMNLOP grads eat ramen.

You're missing the picture here man.  Stop making sense, and start making blanket generalizations, ok?

Glad we had this talk.

Pirates is getting a goat, too.

Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2008, 12:03:21 AM »
Quote
Don't go to school in DC then. Tongue There are places where there are enough jobs for the graduates. Seriously I don't know anyone of my friends from my school w/o a job, gratned we are a mid sized market with two schools (one having a very small class) and I doubt this is the case in NYC or Chicago, but there are places where law stundents don't out number jobs. Maybe they are not glamorius cities or the highest paying markets but there are places without a glut of unemployeed law grads.

I'm putting this in context of the "5th tier" schools discussed in this thread. I have to believe if Regis started a law school in Denver there would be a few grads who would have employment problems.

Until it got established, but the city could not likely support three schools. The new schools have been smart in this at least, opening a new school in Phoenix w/ an evening program was a smart move. I don't care where you go or what rank your school is there is always going to be people who have a hard time finding work. Harder at lower ranked schools for sure, but some people just suck at finiding/keeping work. Not everyone who goes to law school is going to make a good lawyer, but out of every school, even the crappeist ones there are going to be sucesses, even at the best schools failures, blame it on the school if you want to, but some people just suck at life.


You are one of the few posters on this site who seems like he has his SH-T together and doesn't discourage students from non T14. You are honest but not discouraging. It is a breath of fresh air.

The first time I visited this site, I thought that everyone who attended lawschool went to a T14 or did not attend law school at all.

Matthies

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Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2008, 07:53:54 AM »
LOL you guys thanks.

I just canít buy into the ďMcDonalds makes you fatĒ argument that I see as the same thing things as ďX school means you will never get a job.Ē No one holds a gun to a studentís head as says go to school X, or donít do any research, or give up looking for a job if you donít get one through OCI. People make choices, some people make choices where the odds are stacked against them, and some people make choices that mean despite of the odds they are still successful. I honestly believe that if you took OCI away from the top schools about half the students there would have trouble finding jobs. Simplely because most people donít know how to find a job if the school does not provide you one, and they donít teach you how to find them on your own in law school.

So those that donít get stuff from OCI often default to whatever they can get, the worse the school the crapper the jobs. But it does not have to be that way,  according to the ABA journal 80% of the available jobs are unadvertised word of mouth/referral jobs. But the vast majority of law students, at any school, donít go after these. They will take crap offers doing doc review before they invest the time and effort to tap the hidden job market. Thatís not the schools fault.
 Some folks even at very low ranked schools, even where the odds are against them are not going to roll over and play dead, they will keep looking till they find something, they will be successful (granted not Biglaw NYC but they should know better). Are they in the minority, sure, but closing all lowest ranked schools just because most law students are crappy at finding a job is blaming McDonalds for making you fat. So you close McDonalds, those people will just find another fast-food restaurant at which to get fat. Law students who could not find jobs if they went to  a T4 will just move to a T3 or T2 or T1 then post on here or JD Underground how their school failed them because it did not hand them a job.

Of course there is the counter argument to this, but they are paying 150k to get a degree that only gives them modest returns on investment. Again this the McDonalds makes you fat argument. No one is putting a gun to their head and saying you have to go to law school right now and borrow everything to pay for it. You can go part time and work to lower your debt, go to a school you get a scholarship from, you can work for years to save up money to go to school. The schools donít care how you pay for it, they donít make you take loans, thatís an individuals choice, just like it is to not be proactive about their job search. In the end the problem is not the schools, most times it the students.

nealric

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Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2008, 08:23:54 AM »
Quote

You are one of the few posters on this site who seems like he has his SH-T together and doesn't discourage students from non T14. You are honest but not discouraging. It is a breath of fresh air.
 

Since I was quoted in that post along with Matthies response, I would just like to point out that I by no means mean to discourage students from going into lower ranked schools. Matthies advice is 100% correct in regards to how an individual prospective law student should view the situation.

However, I do argue that law schools are being overbuilt to the detriment of the profession. The rate of law school openings simply is not tracking the growth of the industry as a whole. The end result is more and more students are going to get a raw deal out of law school as the supply of new lawyers continues to increase relative to demand. Collective gumption is not going to change that.