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Author Topic: Fifth Tier Toilet  (Read 9302 times)

OConnorScribe

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Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2008, 09:26:07 PM »
I disagree.

Less schools = smaller supply of legal services = higher fees from clients = better for lawyer's pockets.
More schools = larger supply of legal services = lower fees from clients = better for the world.

I think the biggest problem is that lawyers are greedy, the probable reason being that law school is expensive.  Although, there are a lot of people with a sense of entitled even before they go to law school (look at this board).

Bingo, and they think just by going to law school they should be entitled to big money. WTF ever happened to making money becuase you were better at what you did than everyone else? Now people think they deserve it, not becuase they are actauly good lawyers, but just becuase of the name on thier diploma.

You should read the "2L might be as important as 1L" thread I started. The attitudes in there are amusing.

Sorry to hear about your exile from Phoenix because of ASU's stupidity. Honestly, if I was faced with a choice between attending Denver or going to Phoenix Law at night, I'd still go to Denver. Tis a shame, because ASU is like T65.
Pace '10

Matthies

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Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2008, 09:33:46 PM »
Your post is not showing up except in the reply section.

 But in the end everything worked out, Denver is actaully the best school I could go to for what I want to practice, water law, and those jobs you don't get based on ranking anyway, they don't OCI for water law jobs. Colorado is the only state in the Union with water courts, and Denver the only school with a Water Law Review and an MLS/LLM with a water specilization (which I got), and most of the water law practice is in downtown Denver (like less than 1 mile from my house) and I love it here now. So everything worked out for the best. But uprooting at the time (this was before Pheonix law) was kind of tough, Phonix was my home and where my family is. But Denver is my home now and I can run my biz from here so in the end everything worked out for the best (well except ASU would have been MUCH cheaper).
*In clinical studies, Matthies was well tolerated, but women who are pregnant, nursing or might become pregnant should not take or handle Matthies due to a rare, but serious side effect called him having to make child support payments.

d0n

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Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2008, 09:45:56 PM »
everyone seems to forget the students who attend those schools when assigning blame.  The schools wouldn't exist without a demand for them

Matthies

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Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2008, 09:47:31 PM »
everyone seems to forget the students who attend those schools when assigning blame.  The schools wouldn't exist without a demand for them

Thats been hased out in the other thread, I agree they are there becuase of demand, not there to create demand.
*In clinical studies, Matthies was well tolerated, but women who are pregnant, nursing or might become pregnant should not take or handle Matthies due to a rare, but serious side effect called him having to make child support payments.

wrhssaxensemble

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Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2008, 12:17:28 PM »
Can't wait to see it happen and not just because it will make my school look even better by comparison.

The problem isn't that there are too many law schools, it is that there are too many law students. I think part of this is the overreliance on LSATs and the view that there is no one major to prepare you for law school.... this in turn makes everyone who can test well enough think they can be a lawyer even though the two aren't directly correlated.

My solution is to get the schools to lower class sizes. My school has 125 or so per class so about 400 students in total  (including 4Ls and LLMs). Suffolk, in contrast, has about 1800 students in total. As much as I like Suffolk, that is way too much and is only emblimatic of some other law schools with student bodies that are way too big. Cut down on the student body size, less reliance on LSATs (so the admissions committees will be more likely to look at the whole picture regarding a candidate; a lazy but smart kid who gets 179 with a 2.0 GPA won't beat a hardworker who has a 160 and 3.9), more course recommendations for undergrad and it will make the law schools more competitive. The added competition will make it so there can be more law schools without oversaturating the market with incompetent attorneys


OConnorScribe

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Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2008, 01:45:23 PM »
Schools are definitely there because of the demand, but many of them, I think, are there to exploit the demand nefariously. I know John Marshall Law School is not new, but a JMLS who didn't make minimum grade started a thread on here a while back in which he cited an astonishing stat: More people either left or were flunked out of JMLS than all the other Illinois law schools COMBINED (I think the number was 36). I think the fact that there is such a demand for law school attendance, and that there are so many schools, threaten to take the instructional element of the profession down a dark path. The "we'll take anybody" approach to 1L admission, couple with a minimum grade requirement, is repugnant.

I'm proud that my T3 school, at least, is maturing. They lowered the cutoff GPA to 2.0 from 2.3. Part of this is tied to a desire to grow class sizes to roughly 250 from the current 180+. But I think another part of it is an effort to cast the school as a teaching institution. The school's new dean has been there for 21 of the 32 years since it opened ... and she built the academic support and legal writing programs and had a large role in making Civil Procedure a two-semester suite (I think that last move is dumb, because while they might want to be serious about teaching the practice of law, breaking it down to that level -- a month on discovery? pleadings and appeals tackled from every angle? nearly a month on Erie doctrine? -- is asking a lot of students who won't step inside a courtroom for at least a year. (Of course, my average for this suite was a C, costing me a scholarship, so maybe I'm biased ... :-)). Previous dean -- now the university president -- was an SEC commissioner and senior partner at Debelevoise & Plimpton. So her hiring is pretty bold. 

Point there is I think the opening of all these new toilets seems to be putting pressure on established schools to think and grow in creative, proactive ways. My hope is that an emphasis on better teaching across the board at T1 through low high 2/high T3 results from this movement.   
Pace '10

NoUsername

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Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2008, 05:07:47 PM »
The schools are there because of demand, as are loan sharks.  That doesn't make it any less predatory.  To me it seems that they are taking advantage of the fact that many 0Ls don't have an understanding of the job market.

Does anyone take issue with this statement:
You can't operate a school in good faith when even your top graduates have extreme trouble becoming employed. 

StevePirates

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Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2008, 05:23:49 PM »
Does anyone take issue with this statement:
You can't operate a school in good faith when even your top graduates have extreme trouble becoming employed. 

I do.  Not everyone goes to law school because of economic reasons.  Some people just want to be lawyers.  Anyone who passes the bar can go out and hang up a shingle.

I would say that employment is not the holy grail of whether a law school operates in good faith.

Now bar passage rates.... that's something different.  If you can't pass a bar, then your JD is pretty meaningless.

Matthies

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Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2008, 05:31:02 PM »
The schools are there because of demand, as are loan sharks.  That doesn't make it any less predatory.  To me it seems that they are taking advantage of the fact that many 0Ls don't have an understanding of the job market.

Does anyone take issue with this statement:
You can't operate a school in good faith when even your top graduates have extreme trouble becoming employed. 

Yea, me. The jobs ARE out there, the fact that most law stundents suck at finding them unless them come down the OCI pike does not seem to me to be the schools fault. I go to a law school, I think of my schools job as teaching me the law, I think of its as my job to find myself a job. I've never relyed on my school to do that, and suprisingly I've had little problem finding jobs. There are out there people, you just have to go looking for them when you don't go to a school where they come looking for you. People get law jobs even from Cooley, it just takes more work on the students part when the school rank sucks ass. I'm sure as not going to give my school credit when I land a job I worked hard to get, nither am I going to blame them if I get nothing from OCI, geting me a job is not the primary role of a school. Lack of personal responsebilty on the part of the students is what I think is the biggest reason job rates suck out of these schools, if you go in thinking your going to get a high paying job though OCI like the Yale kids from a T4 school and do nothing to look on your own, thats the students fault. Carear services, even at my T2, will tell you the single best way to find the best jobs is networking. But still 90% of my clamssamtes wont do it. Whose fault is that the schools or the students?
*In clinical studies, Matthies was well tolerated, but women who are pregnant, nursing or might become pregnant should not take or handle Matthies due to a rare, but serious side effect called him having to make child support payments.

CoxlessPair

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Re: Fifth Tier Toilet
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2008, 05:32:03 PM »
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