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Author Topic: For shame... Temple's employment statistics  (Read 1414 times)

stateofbeasley

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For shame... Temple's employment statistics
« on: July 06, 2008, 12:44:06 PM »
Most of you are well aware that that salary claims from law schools need to be taken with a grain of salt.  My own Temple University is no exception, and I am astounded at the claims Temple is making.

In my 3L year of law school, I attended a career services event for graduating students.  At this event, the career services office displayed a PowerPoint slide show with detailed statistics on employment.  I distinctly recall that most people going into private practice went into small firms, and that small firms paid between 40k and 60k annually.  Despite this, Temple's website claimed private practice "average" starting salaries in the 80k range:

http://web.archive.org/web/20060909061346/www.law.temple.edu/servlet/RetrievePage?site=TempleLaw&page=Prospective_Profile_Enter_Clas

Today, Temple Law is claiming an "average" starting salary for private practice that is well over $100,000:

http://www.law.temple.edu/servlet/RetrievePage?site=TempleLaw&page=Prospective_Profile_Enter_Clas

$108,303 to be exact.

Beware, for I don't believe that this figure accurately represents the reality on the ground.  People I know who tried to leave the document review shops were getting offers in the 40-50k range for plaintiff's firms, and 60-70k range for midsize ID firms. 

I really hate that Temple continues to publish this "average" salary figure.  The "average" student from Temple is not going to command a six-figure salary upon graduation. 

It is in my view unconscionable that Temple does not post a complete picture of where its graduates go after they leave the law school.  What % go into private practice, and what is the breakdown of salaries by quintile or quartile?  What % go to small, medium, and large firms?  What % go into public service, and what is the breakdown of salaries by quartile? 

Temple Law is a great school with competent, dedicated faculty, solid facilities, and a new dean who is among the most intelligent and talented professors I have ever encountered.  It bogles my mind that Temple does not publish open, complete, and clear employment stats. 

john jacob

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Re: For shame... Temple's employment statistics
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2008, 01:02:49 PM »
Eh, I've seen worse. And since temple in-state costs 15k, this isn't that big a deal.

TimeToPanic

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Re: For shame... Temple's employment statistics
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2008, 01:17:11 PM »
This is why reporting the median salary is much more telling.

vap

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Re: For shame... Temple's employment statistics
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2008, 02:36:06 PM »
Yeah.  There are a lot of schools that only provide the average on their website, mine included.  It's not a very useful number.  Better, I guess, than providing no salary information like some other schools.

TimBeConfused

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Re: For shame... Temple's employment statistics
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2008, 02:39:29 PM »
Wow thats pretty crazy.  I don't know why a school like Temple wouldn't choose to be more honest.  As an in-stater even if they posted more modest and probably more realistic salary figures I would still choose Temple.  The low cost of a legal education there still makes it reasonable to take one of those lower paying jobs that stateofbeasley referenced. 

stateofbeasley:

Out of curiosity, what kind of class rank did you have coming out of school?
If the present Congress errs in too much talking, how can it be otherwise in a body to which the people send one hundred and fifty lawyers, whose trade it is to question everything, yield nothing, and talk by the hour? ~ Thomas Jefferson

Ninja1

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Re: For shame... Temple's employment statistics
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2008, 04:00:14 PM »
Wow thats pretty crazy.  I don't know why a school like Temple wouldn't choose to be more honest.
...

It's the problem of first performance. Everyone games their salary numbers, and until someone stops, everyone will continue to do it. However, there's no good reason for anyone to stop because then they'll be at a strategic disadvantage. As such, it's unlikely that anyone will stop and if they do, they'll probably pay for it unless they can get a large number of schools to join them. It's the same reason almost all schools female dog about USNWR rankings, but they all still continue to participate in them.

For further reading, please see Hobbes' "Leviathan".
I'mma stay bumpin' till I bump my head on my tomb.

Matthies

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Re: For shame... Temple's employment statistics
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2008, 04:21:59 PM »
Wow thats pretty crazy.  I don't know why a school like Temple wouldn't choose to be more honest.
...


For further reading if you are out of ambein and can't fall asleep, please see Hobbes' "Leviathan".

Fixt


Actually I don't even know what my school publsihes for salery numbers I've never looked, since the only salery I care about is the one I get.
*In clinical studies, Matthies was well tolerated, but women who are pregnant, nursing or might become pregnant should not take or handle Matthies due to a rare, but serious side effect called him having to make child support payments.

DCLabor25

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Re: For shame... Temple's employment statistics
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2008, 09:36:45 PM »
Eh, I've seen worse. And since temple in-state costs 15k, this isn't that big a deal.

This is sad in that it tells us just how low our standards are for real data.  Where else would we gladly spend $120K -- or even $45k or $60K -- and not expect to have complete information beforehand?  We don't buy houses or cars or anything else like this.   

I feel bad for the OP and I agree with another poster -- schools don't report all of the information honestly because there is no incentive to do so.  I think some schools are better at this than others, but in my own experience, some of the schools I applied to were very reluctant to get into starting salaries for students who finished below the top third.  That information should be out there front and center because it's a much more likely possibility that you will finish in the bottom 2/3rd's than the top-third (at least for the median student).

There is no reason whatsoever these types of games should be tolerated.  And we don't tolerate it in other walks of life.  For example, when a company decides to go public in a stock offering, it has to provide so much information to potential investors -- the amount of information and coordination is truly staggering.  As long as the company continues to be traded, it has to provide accurate information on all of the operations of the corporation.  Failure to do so can land people in jail and companies out of business.  The same is true for many other societal organizations. 

I think this is one area where the ABA could provide a very useful role as the accrediting agency -- insuring that ALL law schools are providing the same type of information and in a format that students and parents can easily use.  The fact that it can be hard, if not impossible, to compare law schools in this way, and, on top of that, law school costs so much money, is a deadly combination.

john jacob

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Re: For shame... Temple's employment statistics
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2008, 10:00:13 PM »
Oh, what Temple does is awful.

But I can name many other schools who are worse. that's all. Relatively, Temple is the same as most other T2's.

Sergio

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Re: For shame... Temple's employment statistics
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2008, 12:52:42 AM »
Yeah, no law schools really have fully detailed employment statistics, especially T2 schools.  The "average" salaries are inflated by the top of the class making $160,000.  Unfortunately, you have to be on the internet to find this info out.  But it is slowly getting out, and each year, more and more students will learn the true story.  It is still a ways away, but at some point, people might demand more accurate statistics.  We should all be keeping our schools that we are considering accountable, and asking them the hard questions.  They will stall and fudge what they can, and they will be uncomfortable discussing it.