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Author Topic: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....  (Read 20486 times)

pickle

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Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2008, 11:16:47 AM »
The correlation between LS performance and bar passage is very high.  You were dismissed because, based upon JMLS's numbers you are likely not to pass the bar.  The only advice you need:  move on, don't look back, and fuk JMLS.  Law is not for you.  Fuk your study buddy love and your professor love.  All that demonstrates is that you're not dumb.  No fukin shitt.   

The school dismissing 36 1L students demonstrates that the school took 36 too many.  They would be happy to take their tuition for 2 more years if those students were likely to pass the bar.  You went to a school with high attrition, and that school dismissed you.  It is what it is.  The worst thing you could do is go back for more. 


jeffislouie

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Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2008, 12:33:35 PM »
The correlation between LS performance and bar passage is very high.  You were dismissed because, based upon JMLS's numbers you are likely not to pass the bar.  The only advice you need:  move on, don't look back, and fuk JMLS.  Law is not for you.  Fuk your study buddy love and your professor love.  All that demonstrates is that you're not dumb.  No fukin shitt.   

The school dismissing 36 1L students demonstrates that the school took 36 too many.  They would be happy to take their tuition for 2 more years if those students were likely to pass the bar.  You went to a school with high attrition, and that school dismissed you.  It is what it is.  The worst thing you could do is go back for more. 




Whoa.  So what you are saying is that you can tell who will pass the bar and who will not after one semester?  One test in property, one test in torts, and one midterm and final in contracts?  That's all it takes to determine that someone can't pass the bar?
What about the loss of OP's grandfather and the untreated learning disability?  What about the fact that the last test OP took was over 4 years ago?
I appreciate your opinion, but I just can't believe that conclusions like you seem to think have been made can be accurate after one semester of work.....
Justice is tangy....

classic695

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Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2008, 12:34:14 PM »
nachas,

How do you think you're going to pass the bar exam if you are readmitted to JMSL?

You obviously can't do as well on law school exams as the vast majority of students at a T4 law school, so what makes you think you'll be able to pass the bar exam, where you will be competing with all those T4 students who did better than you on your exams as well as students from (much) better law schools?

This should be a serious consideration before you expend any more time/money on law school.

nachas

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Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2008, 12:41:44 PM »
nachas,

How do you think you're going to pass the bar exam if you are readmitted to JMSL?

You obviously can't do as well on law school exams as the vast majority of students at a T4 law school, so what makes you think you'll be able to pass the bar exam, where you will be competing with all those T4 students who did better than you on your exams as well as students from (much) better law schools?

This should be a serious consideration before you expend any more time/money on law school.

Well, first of all the bar exam isn't competitive against other students.  You are taking a test to pass or fail.  I passed all of my classes and have failed none.
Additionally, I believe that if I treat the learning disability properly, I won't have issues with low grades.  As I said before, the shock of all this comes from the fact that I know the material.  I taught some of it to other students who had problems and those around me believe me to be knowledgable - and expert in the courses I took.  This semester was rough, but I don't think that the problem was that I didn't learn the material.  My problem was how my brain handled the testing pressure and time constraints.
People can change, adapt, and learn.  To say that because I took 3 tests poorly, that I am incapable of doing as well as my peers is a little presumptive.

NeverTrustKlingons

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Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2008, 12:43:52 PM »
I would really just sum this up as something that happened in one semester.  If you want to try again and are given the opportunity to do so, don't listen to fatalist messages about failing the bar and not being cut out for the job, etc.

Many of us have gone through periods of sub-par academic performance.  It doesn't have to follow you forever.
I'll never trust a Klingon.  Klingon bastards killed my son.  -- Captain James T. Kirk, USS Enterprise NCC-1701

pickle

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Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2008, 12:44:58 PM »
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/09/24/the-science-of-passing-the-bar-exam-does-first-year-torts-really-matter/

"To test this theory, Rush and Matsuo documented every studentís courseload for five different graduating classes at the St. Louis Law School, analyzing the number of bar topic courses taken against bar passage rates the first time the students sat for the exam. Their results were unequivocal: no relationship existed between law school courseloads and the passage rate of students ranked in the first, second or fourth quarters of their law school class, while only a weak relationship existed for students who ranked in the third quarter. Overall, Rush writes, ďstudents in the upper two quartiles passed the exam at an extremely high rate and those in the fourth quartile failed at a high rate, regardless of which classes they took in law school.Ē The researchers repeated the test in 2007 using data from the Hofstra University School of Law, with identical results (which do not appear in the study)."


classic695

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Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2008, 12:49:57 PM »
nachas,

How do you think you're going to pass the bar exam if you are readmitted to JMSL?

You obviously can't do as well on law school exams as the vast majority of students at a T4 law school, so what makes you think you'll be able to pass the bar exam, where you will be competing with all those T4 students who did better than you on your exams as well as students from (much) better law schools?

This should be a serious consideration before you expend any more time/money on law school.

Well, first of all the bar exam isn't competitive against other students.  You are taking a test to pass or fail.  I passed all of my classes and have failed none.
Additionally, I believe that if I treat the learning disability properly, I won't have issues with low grades.  As I said before, the shock of all this comes from the fact that I know the material.  I taught some of it to other students who had problems and those around me believe me to be knowledgable - and expert in the courses I took.  This semester was rough, but I don't think that the problem was that I didn't learn the material.  My problem was how my brain handled the testing pressure and time constraints.
People can change, adapt, and learn.  To say that because I took 3 tests poorly, that I am incapable of doing as well as my peers is a little presumptive.

Your performance on your law school exams this year shows that your aptitude for taking law school exams is at the lowest possible level among law school students - you were academically dismissed from (i.e., failed out of) a fourth tier law school. Such a low aptitude will very likely not allow you to pass the bar exam (no matter how smart you are aside from law school exams), which is an exam with all (if not more) of the time constraints and pressure of law school exams.

Knowing the material and being able to pass exams are two entirely different things (and, contrary to your assertion, you clearly failed some of your exams - whether it's called a B, a D, or a Z, if the grade is below the minimum required not to fail out of law school, it's a failing grade). Yes, you may know the material, and yes your law professors may think you could be a great lawyer, but unless you can show some aptitude for taking law school exams, which at this point seems clearly impossible, it is extremely unlikely that you will be able to pass the bar.

This may be a good opportunity to save the money you would have spent on two more years of law school and do something else - what would you have wanted to do as a lawyer, anyway? And would a degree from John Marshall (with a terrible GPA) have allowed you to do it? Realistically, no, it wouldn't have. See http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119040786780835602.html for starters - a law degree is not a magical ticket to wealth (or even a job), especially a law degree at the bottom of one's class from a T4.

Bob23

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Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2008, 01:04:43 PM »

  It's the curve and the way they write/enforce it. 
I only learne about this after we took the K midterm, about a month or so before finals, when someone asked the prof how the curve works.  Grades for any given one L class of D or F are awarded to no fewer than 10% and no more than 20% of the class.  Meaning in a class of 80 students, anywhere from 8-16 students get D's or F's.  Academic dismissal is set at 1.75, meaning that if you get more than one D, you are basically screwed.

This is the only comment I've seen you make so far that I think is unwarranted. I am in the process of transferring out of JMLS, and the curve wasn't/shouldn't have been a surprise. If you did any research going into school, you should have known 1L is curved there. The curve is in the Student Handbook, and was discussed at Orientation. I don't think there is any excuse for not knowing what the grading policy is going in. That said, it sucks you were dismissed, and I can certainly understand your general frustration.

Matthies

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Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2008, 02:30:46 PM »
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/09/24/the-science-of-passing-the-bar-exam-does-first-year-torts-really-matter/

"To test this theory, Rush and Matsuo documented every studentís courseload for five different graduating classes at the St. Louis Law School, analyzing the number of bar topic courses taken against bar passage rates the first time the students sat for the exam. Their results were unequivocal: no relationship existed between law school courseloads and the passage rate of students ranked in the first, second or fourth quarters of their law school class, while only a weak relationship existed for students who ranked in the third quarter. Overall, Rush writes, ďstudents in the upper two quartiles passed the exam at an extremely high rate and those in the fourth quartile failed at a high rate, regardless of which classes they took in law school.Ē The researchers repeated the test in 2007 using data from the Hofstra University School of Law, with identical results (which do not appear in the study)."



I think you might be misinterpreting the purpose, and thus the validly for your argument, of this study. The fact that a lower pass rate was found for 4th quartile was in passing, not the focus of the study. The focus of the study was whether or not taking ďbar coursesĒ in law school has any effect on bar passage rates. Therefore, the data on 4th quarter passage rates in general is suspect for the point youíre tying to make. This is because, as it was not the focus of the study, itís not likely other factors were considered in making the conclusion. For example, my guess would be that a number of students in the 4th quartile by end of 3L are there because they have lost interest in the law, but did not want to walk away from law school/debt. Itís likely folks that really donít want to practice law donít put as much effort into preparing for the bar as those that do (regardless of GPA). If the study was looking at simple bar passage rates as they compare to GPA these and other issues would need to be accounted for, for the study to be a good measure. However, as I said, that was not what was being studied here.

My school has done similar studies with the same results, no bearing on bar passage to bar courses taken in law school (i.e. Those that took primarily Wills, Trusts, Estates and other bar tested courses in law school did not do any better than those that took primarily (or even exclusively at my school) courses that were not tested on the bar. Iím not necessarily discounting the idea that lower GPA means lower bar passage rate, but I think a study focused on that would have to factor in other variables than this study did for it to be the kind of measure you are trying to use it for.

*In clinical studies, Matthies was well tolerated, but women who are pregnant, nursing or might become pregnant should not take or handle Matthies due to a rare, but serious side effect called him having to make child support payments.

pickle

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Re: JMLS Academic dismissal: gripes and questions....
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2008, 02:50:32 PM »
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/09/24/the-science-of-passing-the-bar-exam-does-first-year-torts-really-matter/

"To test this theory, Rush and Matsuo documented every studentís courseload for five different graduating classes at the St. Louis Law School, analyzing the number of bar topic courses taken against bar passage rates the first time the students sat for the exam. Their results were unequivocal: no relationship existed between law school courseloads and the passage rate of students ranked in the first, second or fourth quarters of their law school class, while only a weak relationship existed for students who ranked in the third quarter. Overall, Rush writes, ďstudents in the upper two quartiles passed the exam at an extremely high rate and those in the fourth quartile failed at a high rate, regardless of which classes they took in law school.Ē The researchers repeated the test in 2007 using data from the Hofstra University School of Law, with identical results (which do not appear in the study)."



I think you might be misinterpreting the purpose, and thus the validly for your argument, of this study. The fact that a lower pass rate was found for 4th quartile was in passing, not the focus of the study. The focus of the study was whether or not taking ďbar coursesĒ in law school has any effect on bar passage rates. Therefore, the data on 4th quarter passage rates in general is suspect for the point youíre tying to make. This is because, as it was not the focus of the study, itís not likely other factors were considered in making the conclusion. For example, my guess would be that a number of students in the 4th quartile by end of 3L are there because they have lost interest in the law, but did not want to walk away from law school/debt. Itís likely folks that really donít want to practice law donít put as much effort into preparing for the bar as those that do (regardless of GPA). If the study was looking at simple bar passage rates as they compare to GPA these and other issues would need to be accounted for, for the study to be a good measure. However, as I said, that was not what was being studied here.

My school has done similar studies with the same results, no bearing on bar passage to bar courses taken in law school (i.e. Those that took primarily Wills, Trusts, Estates and other bar tested courses in law school did not do any better than those that took primarily (or even exclusively at my school) courses that were not tested on the bar. Iím not necessarily discounting the idea that lower GPA means lower bar passage rate, but I think a study focused on that would have to factor in other variables than this study did for it to be the kind of measure you are trying to use it for.



I quoted the purpose of the study.  There is no slight of hand here.  It's not my study; discount it, distinguish it, scrutinize the missing variables.  It's pretty common knowledge that LS performance has a high correlation to bar passage (should OP doubt this he should ask the dean directly why the school dismisses low graded students).  One of the conclusions of the study is relevant and on point.  OP should not go back to JMLS because he will likely not pass the bar, and JMLS knew this and dismissed him.