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Author Topic: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects  (Read 24462 times)

naturallybeyoutiful

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Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2008, 10:22:37 AM »
thanks again to all.  i can't find the LSN-type website for associate jobs.  aquarium had posted the link, and apparently deleted the messages.  i'm sure it will be circulating again before too long.

thanks, pat, and everyone else who put in their two cents. i'm keeping my fingers crossed. :)

Doesn't HLS career services give out that type of info?  Not exact GPA, but like how selective different firms are. 

It probably does, though I haven't run across it yet.  There's lots of access to official rankings, student evals, interview stats (e.g. how many callbacks got an interview, how many accepted it, etc.), but I haven't found anything really tying GPA to firms.  This makes sense, however, since we don't really calculate GPA or class rank here any way. 

The only thing I've come across so far is an estimate of the percentage of students within a certain range (e.g. "between B and B+") that get judicial clerkships.  There may be a document somewhere that (in)directly links GPA to firm selectivity, but I've never seen it.  I'm not OCS advisor, but I think that everyone (no matter his GPA) should cast a sufficiently wide net of firms in the targeted geographic area. I think it's kind of like law school, at least in this stage of the bidding game -- do your research and then bid for what you think are reaches, matches, and safeties. 

ETA I do agree with the OP though.  It's a bit difficult (and made intentionally so, I believe) to know where you stand going into OCI.   I didn't know the grade distribution was kept under wraps here.  Unless you are the Sears Prize winner (See, e.g., http://media.www.hlrecord.org/media/storage/paper609/news/2003/09/18/News/Sears.Prize.Winners.Announced-470066.shtml) you never really know how you measure up as against your peers.  If you get a B, you don't know how many students got a B-.  If you get an A, you don't know how many students got an A+.  Not only are you not sure where you stand among your section of 70-80 students, but you're not sure how you measure as compared against the other seven sections either!!!!  So I sympathize with the OP, even though I do think almost everyone at HLS tends to be much too hard on him/herself. 

OP - In the long run, your B average won't make much difference.  Unless you were shooting to be a SCOTUS clerk, make Law Review, or go to the very top firm right out of HLS - I don't think you have too much too worry about.  You'll do fine.  Now enjoy 2L and good luck on OCI!
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Private David Lewis

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Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2008, 04:08:15 PM »

It probably does, though I haven't run across it yet.  There's lots of access to official rankings, student evals, interview stats (e.g. how many callbacks got an interview, how many accepted it, etc.), but I haven't found anything really tying GPA to firms.  This makes sense, however, since we don't really calculate GPA or class rank here any way. 



Right, but it seemed from looking at those stats at my school (Columbia), that I could figure out that maybe 80-90 people were all getting CBs at the "top firms," meaning you probably had to be around top third to get CBs or offers at those firms (I'm thinking DPW, Cleary, Cravath).  Then the number of CBs was a little lower for firms like Wachtell or W&C or Covington, where you probably need something else besides good grades. 
The main partner in their Entertainment Law group went to CLS, but he was Fiske and on LR, so be careful.  You don't want to set yourself goals that are too high.

naturallybeyoutiful

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Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2008, 11:49:24 PM »

It probably does, though I haven't run across it yet.  There's lots of access to official rankings, student evals, interview stats (e.g. how many callbacks got an interview, how many accepted it, etc.), but I haven't found anything really tying GPA to firms.  This makes sense, however, since we don't really calculate GPA or class rank here any way. 



Right, but it seemed from looking at those stats at my school (Columbia), that I could figure out that maybe 80-90 people were all getting CBs at the "top firms," meaning you probably had to be around top third to get CBs or offers at those firms (I'm thinking DPW, Cleary, Cravath).  Then the number of CBs was a little lower for firms like Wachtell or W&C or Covington, where you probably need something else besides good grades. 


I see your point.  But I still think it's tough to draw conclusions from this kind of info because there's complete self-selection when it comes to bidding on the firm in the first place.  This, in turn, affects who gets an interview and, in turn, a callback.  (Maybe I just don't understand your calculation method though, so you might have to re-explain it.)  Here's my thinking.... 

-There are appx. 550 2Ls at HLS. 
-Let's say 300 of them bid for Cravath, and 275 actually score an on-campus interview. 
-Of that 275, let's say 90 get callbacks.  (I have no recollection of Cravath's numbers in particular; I'm just making all these numbers up for the sake of the discussion.)  That's about 33% getting call-backs. 

Unless the firm goes strictly by grade point averages and the 275 students who scored interviews have a grade distribution roughly equivalent  to  that of the total 2L class, how does it necessarily follow that that those students represent the top-third of the class?  Rather we know that student bidding and OCS interview assignments are not dependent on one's GPA.

So, let's say 39 of the 275 students who interview have a B/B+ average only?  Now let's say, 9 of those B/B+ students get call-backs.  Those 9 B/B+ students are part of the 90.  Yet there's no way that those B/B+ students are in the top-third of the class, even though appx. 1 out of every 3 students who interview with Cravath got  a callback.  (Disclaimer: I'm light-years away from my last stat class, so feel free to correct me if my thinking is wrong.   Seriously. :P

In a nutshell, I just don't see how one can generalize on the basis of CB numbers or anything else without knowing anything more definitive about the population of students who interviewed in the first place.   ???
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superduperxyz

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Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2008, 11:18:06 PM »
Maybe this will give you some perspective:

I go to a CCN school. I have approx. a 3.2 GPA with some A/A- grades and some B+/B/B- grades (obviously more of the latter).  I did about the same first and second semester on average.

I had many OCI interviews.  I did most of the V20, some V40, some V60, some V80, some V100, and a couple random firms that have occasionally made it into the V100.

I had callbacks with about half of my OCI firms.  I got callbacks from almost all my firms below the V20, with a few exceptions. 

So far, I have gotten offers from nearly all of my callbacks (12 of 15), and have not been "dinged" officially yet.  I have offers from 4 of my 5 top choice firms, and have yet to interview with the last one.  I have offers beginning in the V20-V30 down to beyond the V100.

You should be fine if my experience is any indication.  Just for some background, I went to a good undergrad, and have limited relevant work experience.  I am on a 2d tier journal and have no law school awards, but am in the leadership of two major law school organizations.

Good luck!

Visual Dictionary

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Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2008, 11:52:40 PM »
I'm a lowly 1L, but it seems like there are two types of BigLaw firms:

V20 + boutiques + a few that Vault badly misranks, like Irell and MTO.

Everyone else.

If you want the latter, then HYSCCN seems to cut the mustard fairly well, but you also need good grades for the former.  (And you need a decent geographic and practice explanation for both.)

Am I right?
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Private David Lewis

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Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2008, 12:30:00 AM »
I'm a lowly 1L, but it seems like there are two types of BigLaw firms:

V20 + boutiques + a few that Vault badly misranks, like Irell and MTO.

Everyone else.

If you want the latter, then HYSCCN seems to cut the mustard fairly well, but you also need good grades for the former.  (And you need a decent geographic and practice explanation for both.)

Am I right?

Eh, I think the Vault thing is misleading.  There are some "V20" firms you can get from T6 schools with bleh grades.  But there are some V20 that require top top grades and LR.  Like Gibson NY or Sidley NY or Skadden or S&S or White and Case I think you could get fairly easily, for instance.  That's just based on anecdotal evidence, however.   
The main partner in their Entertainment Law group went to CLS, but he was Fiske and on LR, so be careful.  You don't want to set yourself goals that are too high.

Visual Dictionary

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Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2008, 12:32:07 AM »
Agreed.  It seems like Skadden and Weil are easier than some lower-ranked firms, especially lower ranked ones in DC.

The point is that there are a handful of very selective firms and a large number of less selective ones that are happy to have HYSCCN associates.

I think.   Feel free to correct any misconception.
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canada87

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Re: below-curve hls 2L re: oci prospects
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2011, 03:44:49 PM »
Well that's why you have to work so hard to get good grades in the first place. ;)