Why is Cooley Law so despised?

[George545454]

You just won't fine this diversity of opinions on autoadmit...

[kenpostudent]

Nevertheless, the principle is the same. There are plenty of tax and securities attorneys who did not go to top schools but still manage to make a great living. It doesn't really matter what specialty that you want to discuss, for every biglaw firm, there are smaller firm alternatives. BigLaw services large corporations and wealthy individuals. Many of my clients cannot afford their fees, so they find other alternatives. Most of those alternatives involve attorneys who did not graduate from top law schools.

Do Cooley graduates have access to those types of firms? I don't know the answer to that. However, I'm willing to bet that a Cooley student that markets himself well will find a way to break into a field of his choice, eventually.

The principal advantage that I can see to top schools is the access to Biglaw, which is by no means a guarantee, but a great probablility with a degree from an elite law school. With those increased odds of landing a Biglaw job comes a higher debt load (in many cases, but not all). All the other trappings of elite schools can be counteracted with wise choices and relevant work experience, in my opinion. If I'm wrong, please tell me why you think so.

[wkjr]

All the other trappings of elite schools can be counteracted with wise choices and relevant work experience, in my opinion. If I'm wrong, please tell me why you think so.

....you're not wrong, you're just an a&&hole


(i really couldn't resist that big lebowski moment....totally kidding...please don't take it personally!)

[Ender Wiggin]

Nevertheless, the principle is the same. There are plenty of tax and securities attorneys who did not go to top schools but still manage to make a great living. It doesn't really matter what specialty that you want to discuss, for every biglaw firm, there are smaller firm alternatives. BigLaw services large corporations and wealthy individuals. Many of my clients cannot afford their fees, so they find other alternatives. Most of those alternatives involve attorneys who did not graduate from top law schools.

Do Cooley graduates have access to those types of firms? I don't know the answer to that. However, I'm willing to bet that a Cooley student that markets himself well will find a way to break into a field of his choice, eventually.

The principal advantage that I can see to top schools is the access to Biglaw, which is by no means a guarantee, but a great probablility with a degree from an elite law school. With those increased odds of landing a Biglaw job comes a higher debt load (in many cases, but not all). All the other trappings of elite schools can be counteracted with wise choices and relevant work experience, in my opinion. If I'm wrong, please tell me why you think so.

It's not just biglaw.  Academia, SCOTUS and federal circuit clerkships, highly competitive public interest jobs--you name it, it's probably going to be easier to get it from a higher ranked school. 

Will Lewis and Clark grads get good environmental jobs?  Probably.  Does that necessarily translate to random 3rd and 4th tier law schools?  Certainly not.

All of the other trappings can be replaced?  I took Contracts from the guy who wrote the book (as well as the hornbook), and has a ridiculous amount of experience and insight.  I'm taking CivPro from one of the top (if not THE top) procedure experts in the country.  My Property professor wrote the book as well, and has an incredible grasp of the subject.  My ConLaw professor clerked for a Supreme Court judge, and is ridiculously sharp and insightful.  I'm not going to even get into my Torts professor.  He's just ridiculous (in a good way).  And that's just my professors.  The students here are brilliant too, and are an extremely valuable part of my educational experience.  I just can't imagine that those factors are so easily replaceable. 

The Lions and the Patriots are both in the NFL, and if you get drafted by either one you're going something right.  But don't try to tell me that they are the same.  (Sorry Cooley--I did just compare you to the Lions.  Maybe you can forgive me someday.)

[themanwithnoname]

I'm taking CivPro from one of the top (if not THE top) procedure experts in the country.

He's not the top procedure expert.

[SCOOTERNINJA]

The Lions and the Patriots are both in the NFL, and if you get drafted by either one you're going something right.  But don't try to tell me that they are the same.  (Sorry Cooley--I did just compare you to the Lions.  Maybe you can forgive me someday.)

If you get drafted by the Lions you are probably a better player than the guy drafted by the Patriots (at least coming out of college), seeing how the Lions usually draft higher .

[kenpostudent]

All of the other trappings can be replaced?  I took Contracts from the guy who wrote the book (as well as the hornbook), and has a ridiculous amount of experience and insight.  I'm taking CivPro from one of the top (if not THE top) procedure experts in the country.  My Property professor wrote the book as well, and has an incredible grasp of the subject.  My ConLaw professor clerked for a Supreme Court judge, and is ridiculously sharp and insightful.  I'm not going to even get into my Torts professor.  He's just ridiculous (in a good way).  And that's just my professors.  The students here are brilliant too, and are an extremely valuable part of my educational experience.  I just can't imagine that those factors are so easily replaceable. 

I don't doubt that all of your professors are intellectual giants. That is not in dispute. Yet, if you look at the faculty bios of UNLV (a tier 2 school, but glorified tier 3 in my opinion), you'll find that most of the professors attended Harvard/Yale/Stanford or other elite schools. So, what is the difference? I have not looked at the faculty bios of Cooley profs, but I bet a fair share of them came from elite schools, as well. So, am I worse off for attending UNLV at a price tag of $20k per year as opposed to Michigan at a cost of well over $35k per? I really doubt it, especially since UNLV hires great professors, as well.

If you look at the bios of the faculty at almost any law school, I bet you can find at least one or two who clerked for a Supreme Court judge or a federal court judge at some point. I suppose that such clerkships are important, but they seem more like status symbols to me. The connections afforded by such positions are probably quite valuable, but how they transfer over to making someone a better professor is beyond me. I'm sure all of your professors are bright and can find infinite insights in the penumbra of each decision. Maybe they can find new Constitutional rights buried under the dot of an "i" - probably the next jusfication for Universal Healthcare or something. Good for them!

At least Michigan USED to have a great football team! Too bad you suck now. I would rather pay $43k per year to watch the Trojans run through the Pac-10 than to pay $45k per year to hear posturing Harvard intellectuals rail against the evils of America. Well, at Harvard I suppose you have the rowing team to watch or the lacrosse team... all panty-waist sports. How can you attend a school without a decent football team?! This is America, goddammit!

[thorc954]

Former SCOTUS justices bring so much to classes as they were in the chambers writing some of the very opinions that we are reading in class.  The professor has a significantly better idea of what the Justice is saying since he helped right it.

That is just my plug for going to a school with Scotus clerks.


Anyway, the argument about quality of faculty is stupid since few of us go to law school to learn.  We go to law school to be lawyers, and bar bri teaches us enough about that.  Regardless of equality of education, top schools have better job placement than Cooley (regardless of what job you want to pursue), and it is significantly easier to pay of loans if you have a job (plus, if you take a job that doesnt pay well, I would imagine the better schools have better LRAP programs). 

[Ender Wiggin]

All of the other trappings can be replaced?  I took Contracts from the guy who wrote the book (as well as the hornbook), and has a ridiculous amount of experience and insight.  I'm taking CivPro from one of the top (if not THE top) procedure experts in the country.  My Property professor wrote the book as well, and has an incredible grasp of the subject.  My ConLaw professor clerked for a Supreme Court judge, and is ridiculously sharp and insightful.  I'm not going to even get into my Torts professor.  He's just ridiculous (in a good way).  And that's just my professors.  The students here are brilliant too, and are an extremely valuable part of my educational experience.  I just can't imagine that those factors are so easily replaceable. 

I don't doubt that all of your professors are intellectual giants. That is not in dispute. Yet, if you look at the faculty bios of UNLV (a tier 2 school, but glorified tier 3 in my opinion), you'll find that most of the professors attended Harvard/Yale/Stanford or other elite schools. So, what is the difference? I have not looked at the faculty bios of Cooley profs, but I bet a fair share of them came from elite schools, as well. So, am I worse off for attending UNLV at a price tag of $20k per year as opposed to Michigan at a cost of well over $35k per? I really doubt it, especially since UNLV hires great professors, as well.

If you look at the bios of the faculty at almost any law school, I bet you can find at least one or two who clerked for a Supreme Court judge or a federal court judge at some point. I suppose that such clerkships are important, but they seem more like status symbols to me. The connections afforded by such positions are probably quite valuable, but how they transfer over to making someone a better professor is beyond me. I'm sure all of your professors are bright and can find infinite insights in the penumbra of each decision. Maybe they can find new Constitutional rights buried under the dot of an "i" - probably the next jusfication for Universal Healthcare or something. Good for them!

At least Michigan USED to have a great football team! Too bad you suck now. I would rather pay $43k per year to watch the Trojans run through the Pac-10 than to pay $45k per year to hear posturing Harvard intellectuals rail against the evils of America. Well, at Harvard I suppose you have the rowing team to watch or the lacrosse team... all panty-waist sports. How can you attend a school without a decent football team?! This is America, goddammit!

Keep telling yourself that . . .

[kenpostudent]

If you look at the bios of the faculty at almost any law school, I bet you can find at least one or two who clerked for a Supreme Court judge or a federal court judge at some point. I suppose that such clerkships are important, but they seem more like status symbols to me. The connections afforded by such positions are probably quite valuable, but how they transfer over to making someone a better professor is beyond me. I'm sure all of your professors are bright and can find infinite insights in the penumbra of each decision. Maybe they can find new Constitutional rights buried under the dot of an "i" - probably the next jusfication for Universal Healthcare or something. Good for them!

I've had maybe 3 professors so far who HAVENT clerked for a Supreme Court Justice, and 2.  Status symbol? Are you kidding me? Find me a judge who doesn't say that federal law clerks aren't the smartest people in the judicial system.  Please, try me.  They make better professors because they are the BRAINS behind Supreme Court decisions.  Do you want someone explaining Brown v. BOE to you who studied it, or WHO WROTE IT?

Kenpo, everything you've said is spoken like someone who truly hasn't spent a day in law school.  Good luck your first year.  Hope your expectations pan out. 

This explains why the recent Supreme Court decisions have been so crazy and damn near incoherent. Thanks for filling in that blank. To be blunt, I think half the members of the Supreme Court are complete morons. So, if they are the standard of jurisprudence to which you so obsequiously genuflect, then we will probably never agree on much of anything.

I'm sure your school and professors are great. If you are happy with it, then I suppose that is all that matters. I wouldn't darken the doorstep of any of the so called elite schools. If my career somehow suffers for it, then so be it. I doubt it will, though, because I have already built plenty of relationships with partners of the firms that my clients employ. I'll let you know in four years what fruits those connections yield. Maybe I get a job and maybe I don't. We'll see.

Please don't misunderstand me, I would not choose Cooley over about 150 other law schools, even with a full ride and a stipend on the table. I'm just saying that there are many paths to an end. Cooley might be that path for some. Let's assume that you are right, though. Let's say that I attend Alabama, get a scholarship and walk out of school with just living expenses (let's say $50k in debt, for argument's sake). You, on the other had, come out of Michigan with $150k+ of debt. You'll PROBABLY get a great job (I say probably because nothing in life is guaranteed) that will allow you to pay the bills. I'm proud of you, I really am! You will have to work for the man for several years to pay off your debt, though. I may get a decent job at a big firm. I may not. Odds are that I will find a job somewhere that pays roughly $60k. I know that because I make just under that now with my current level of education and experience. So, at minimum, I'll get what I have. Sooner or later, I will get the experience to compete at a big firm or wherever I choose to go.  You will have to rely on a loan repayment plan to pay off your massive debt (and those funds may not be there... but probably will be) or work long hours for many years to pay down the debt (scratch everything I just said if you have a scholarship).

At the worst case, I'll just go back to my old job and be on the fast track to make partner with a law degree. I'll be the first guy they call when they need a legal opinion for complex M&A transactions, business combinations, and hosts of other transactions that I already work deal with on a daily basis. Do you realize how useful and marketable a law degree would be at my firm... if for nothing else to use in fraud examination and complex tax issues? Anyone with a law degree and a CPA designation is automatically on the fast track for partnership, assuming a modicum of marketing and networking skills.  Partners at may firm make $$$$$. So, I really can't lose. So, please don't lecture me about how difficult it will be to find a job from a non-t14 law school. I'll do just fine. If you MUST attend the top school to get a decent job, that says more about you than the t14, the state of the legal profession or snobbery at large firms.